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I'm dismayed at how little we seem to know about pesticides, neonicotinoids for example but probably a host of other types. It certainly stands to reason that i

I'm dismayed at how little we seem to know about pesticides, neonicotinoids for example but probably a host of other types. It certainly stands to reason that industrial application of poisons is going to kill a lot of species and destabilize ecosystems. The decline of insect populations over several decades - which to me is symbolized by the near-extinction of the monarch butterfly, is probably more destabilizing to our environment than the loss of charismatic megafauna would be. Pesticide policy, if the example of DDT holds, can at least be changed - and hopefully soils and insect populations can recover with protection and management in the same way that raptor populations have recovered in recent years. It will take a lot of work.

fy20 5y ago
If anything I'd say the problem is we don't understand enough about how soil and its corresponding ecosystem works, the article even says that: > Currently, regulators completely ignore pesticides’ harm to earthworms, springtails, beetles and thousands of other subterranean species. Pesticides and herbicides are designed to kill certain things, with the assumption that "this is bad because it's not what I want to grow or it damages my crops", but that's missing a big part of the picture. The permaculture movement seems to be taking the right path, hopefully some of those concepts can be adopted by big ag before they damage the soil too much.
- dylan604 5y ago
  > before they damage the soil too much. That really depends on the definition of 'too much'. Does too much mean arid dry wasteland that no longer supports life at all? Does it mean the native flora&fauna no longer grow and everything that does grow must be artificially supported mean too much? Does using it all mean too much (I lean this way personally).
  - tremon 5y ago
    Yes. What does "using it all" even mean, given soil is a renewable resource? Should we "use all energy" from the Sun if we could, if that would mean we'd turn it into a brown dwarf 100 years from now?
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Someone I have been studying that is a step up in scale from permaculture is Jean-Martin Fortier [1] (inspired by Eliot Coleman [2]) who does a fully organic/biodynamic system. It is relatively small scale but high output for-profit farming. I am developing an open source robot that I hope will be able to farm this way, though it’s early days. [3] JM Fortier of course is only one of many skilled farmers throughout the world, but what I appreciate is that he has clearly documented his process in videos and text so I find it easy to pick up on. His new farm is larger in scale and getting more to the kind of production we need, though the largest commercial farms are still orders of magnitude larger. I have also been appreciating the No Till Market Garden Podcast and YouTube channel. [4] [1] https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs [2] https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU [3] https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk [4] https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE
  - mro_name 5y ago
    Permaculture is phantastic – however, how does it align with selling produce, i.e. removing material from the farm?
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Well JM Fortier doesn’t call his method permaculture. But he buys organic compost to add to his beds regularly to replenish the lost material.
    - fy20 5y ago
      There are many parts of the plant left over even after harvesting the parts you can sell commercially as food. Those can be used to produce compost which can go back in the soil. Compare this to how most commercial farming is done today, where whatever is left over is usually used as animal feed.

fy20 5y ago

If anything I'd say the problem is we don't understand enough about how soil and its corresponding ecosystem works, the article even says that: > Currently, regulators completely ignore pesticides’ harm to earthworms, springtails, beetles and thousands of other subterranean species. Pesticides and herbicides are designed to kill certain things, with the assumption that "this is bad because it's not what I want to grow or it damages my crops", but that's missing a big part of the picture. The permaculture movement seems to be taking the right path, hopefully some of those concepts can be adopted by big ag before they damage the soil too much.

dylan604 5y ago
> before they damage the soil too much. That really depends on the definition of 'too much'. Does too much mean arid dry wasteland that no longer supports life at all? Does it mean the native flora&fauna no longer grow and everything that does grow must be artificially supported mean too much? Does using it all mean too much (I lean this way personally).
- tremon 5y ago
  Yes. What does "using it all" even mean, given soil is a renewable resource? Should we "use all energy" from the Sun if we could, if that would mean we'd turn it into a brown dwarf 100 years from now?
TaylorAlexander 5y ago
Someone I have been studying that is a step up in scale from permaculture is Jean-Martin Fortier [1] (inspired by Eliot Coleman [2]) who does a fully organic/biodynamic system. It is relatively small scale but high output for-profit farming. I am developing an open source robot that I hope will be able to farm this way, though it’s early days. [3] JM Fortier of course is only one of many skilled farmers throughout the world, but what I appreciate is that he has clearly documented his process in videos and text so I find it easy to pick up on. His new farm is larger in scale and getting more to the kind of production we need, though the largest commercial farms are still orders of magnitude larger. I have also been appreciating the No Till Market Garden Podcast and YouTube channel. [4] [1] https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs [2] https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU [3] https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk [4] https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE
- mro_name 5y ago
  Permaculture is phantastic – however, how does it align with selling produce, i.e. removing material from the farm?
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Well JM Fortier doesn’t call his method permaculture. But he buys organic compost to add to his beds regularly to replenish the lost material.
  - fy20 5y ago
    There are many parts of the plant left over even after harvesting the parts you can sell commercially as food. Those can be used to produce compost which can go back in the soil. Compare this to how most commercial farming is done today, where whatever is left over is usually used as animal feed.