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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

390 points by pmastela 5y ago

cryptos 5y ago
Capitalism needs to be fixed immediately! The root cause is that short-term profits are more important than sustainability. Using pesticides is just one of many symptoms.
OnlyRepliesToBS 5y ago
glycophosphates
unchocked 5y ago
I'm dismayed at how little we seem to know about pesticides, neonicotinoids for example but probably a host of other types. It certainly stands to reason that industrial application of poisons is going to kill a lot of species and destabilize ecosystems. The decline of insect populations over several decades - which to me is symbolized by the near-extinction of the monarch butterfly, is probably more destabilizing to our environment than the loss of charismatic megafauna would be. Pesticide policy, if the example of DDT holds, can at least be changed - and hopefully soils and insect populations can recover with protection and management in the same way that raptor populations have recovered in recent years. It will take a lot of work.
- fy20 5y ago
  If anything I'd say the problem is we don't understand enough about how soil and its corresponding ecosystem works, the article even says that: > Currently, regulators completely ignore pesticides’ harm to earthworms, springtails, beetles and thousands of other subterranean species. Pesticides and herbicides are designed to kill certain things, with the assumption that "this is bad because it's not what I want to grow or it damages my crops", but that's missing a big part of the picture. The permaculture movement seems to be taking the right path, hopefully some of those concepts can be adopted by big ag before they damage the soil too much.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    > before they damage the soil too much. That really depends on the definition of 'too much'. Does too much mean arid dry wasteland that no longer supports life at all? Does it mean the native flora&fauna no longer grow and everything that does grow must be artificially supported mean too much? Does using it all mean too much (I lean this way personally).
    - tremon 5y ago
      Yes. What does "using it all" even mean, given soil is a renewable resource? Should we "use all energy" from the Sun if we could, if that would mean we'd turn it into a brown dwarf 100 years from now?
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Someone I have been studying that is a step up in scale from permaculture is Jean-Martin Fortier [1] (inspired by Eliot Coleman [2]) who does a fully organic/biodynamic system. It is relatively small scale but high output for-profit farming. I am developing an open source robot that I hope will be able to farm this way, though it’s early days. [3] JM Fortier of course is only one of many skilled farmers throughout the world, but what I appreciate is that he has clearly documented his process in videos and text so I find it easy to pick up on. His new farm is larger in scale and getting more to the kind of production we need, though the largest commercial farms are still orders of magnitude larger. I have also been appreciating the No Till Market Garden Podcast and YouTube channel. [4] [1] https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs [2] https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU [3] https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk [4] https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE
    - mro_name 5y ago
      Permaculture is phantastic – however, how does it align with selling produce, i.e. removing material from the farm?
      - 5y ago
giantg2 5y ago
Bees do touch soil. Quite often they like to collect water from rich, wet soils and dirty water. It's thought that they enjoy dirty water over clean water due to minerals.
- hinkley 5y ago
  I’ve seen both bees and wasps go nuts over seeps in wetlands. If you kill the bees, no food, but kill the wasps and you have more pests to deal with.
chewz 5y ago
Remind me to buy a pack of cotton t-shirts with "Stop pesticides" logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_cotton#Ecological_footprint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_cotton#Ecological_foot...
- telesilla 5y ago
  Interesting new fabric tech such as Tencel "cotton" (from fast growth drought resistant trees such as Eucalyptus) and Piñatex leather (food waste of pineapples) are hopeful alternatives.
calkuta 5y ago
If people cared they wouldn't be doing it
latch 5y ago
Dengue is a serious health threat in Singapore. Fogging (1) is pretty common. Now, the Singapore government says fogging should be used judiciously, not routinely. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. Many condos will fog once a week, year-round. Supposedly all operations must be submitted in the an "E-fogging Submission System", but as far as I can tell, there's no visibility into this. Singapore has also recently declared a "climate change emergency", and I'd consider biodiversity, at the very least, a part of that. My point is that: if the Singapore Government is unable or unwilling to manage this with a sense of urgency (or "emergency"), then I'm not generally hopeful. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogging_(insect_control) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogging_(insect_control)
- refurb 5y ago
  Dengue fever is a serious disease and it’s not rare in Singapore, there were 40,000+ cases in 2020 which is pretty high for a population of 5M. If they stopped their mosquito control efforts it would be disastrous for human health.
  - bvrlt 5y ago
    Wouldn't a healthier ecosystem better handle mosquitoes, though? Predators of mosquitoes are bats, birds, fishes, frogs…
    - Mengkudulangsat 5y ago
      A healthy ecosystem in Singapore will be chock-full of mosquitoes and no humans. The island started out as a swamp.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        Sometimes I think mother nature just looks at people shaking her head quoting the line from Last Crusade, "you chose poorly" on selecting where to live.
      - mrpopo 5y ago
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
Small time farmers who are at the mercy of handful of Big Corp. will do everything at their hands to increase the yield for meeting the demand laid down upon them or they perish. So this is not just a technical problem.
- deleted 5y ago
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- hosh 5y ago
  The documentary, Kiss the Earth talks about this, but it starts with a FDR-era government service that had been attempting to teach farmers about soil health for decades. A big part of this is that the solution to this comes from a very different way of seeing, a different way of solving problems. Yields of a specific crop from a farm practicing regenerative agriculture or permaculture is less than the yields of a monocropping farm. However, the profit from across all of the crops and livestock from farm practicing regenerative agriculture is much better per sq ft than conventional farming. It is also more resilient against crop failures and market swings. But using the paradigm from which conventional farming methods come from, regenerative agriculture is counter-intuitive. It first starts with seeing soil as a living organism, and the whole farm as a living system -- an ecosystem. From there, growing good crops require growing your soil. Feeding grazing livestock directly on cover plants not only helps grow the soil, pasture-raised livestock are happier and yield healthier meat. (So you don't just rotate crops, you also rotate grazers). I can go on.
timeinput 5y ago
Does anyone have sources for suggestions about what we should do? I read these articles, and worry, and wonder what can I do. It's not clear to me that buying organic mono-cropped bananas at the mega mart is in anyway better or worse than buying non-organic mono-cropped bananas. I'd really like to just build up some more understanding on what I can do in my daily life to make things not worse.
- ed25519FUUU 5y ago
  Support local farmers who follow better practices, such as low/no till or organic. Buy meat that was grazed on local grass, which is the single best thing we can do to build better soil. Buy things in season that grow well locally.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Organic still uses pesticides, just “organic” ones. https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/national-list https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/national-... For crops it includes copper sulfate, peracetic acid, ferric phosphate.
    - 34679 5y ago
      Some very effective organic pesticides/fungicides are bacteria. Two examples are Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis for larvae that feed on roots[1] and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens, which out-competes soil pathogens[2] and prevents powdery mildew on foliage.[3] Research in this area is an important step toward learning how to build healthy soil instead of killing it. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis_israelensis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis_israele... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_amyloliquefaciens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_amyloliquefaciens [3]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2015.00883/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2015.0088...
- holri 5y ago
  You can join a CSA (Community supported agriculture) or join a local Foodcoop. Eat local things that grows naturally like weed in your area. For example, in my case I do not buy bananas at all, but organic apples from sources and land I know.
ed25519FUUU 5y ago
My observation is that smaller farmers, especially cottage farming, have a really good grasp on soil health and actively cultivate soil via grazing. Grazing is one of the best things we can do to build soil. Animals and the soil grew up and evolved together. It’s a shame the world is turning so strongly against meat, regardless of how it’s raised.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  From Wikipedia: "Grazing systems supply about 9 percent of the world's production of beef ..."[1] I don't think there's going to be a 91% reduction in beef intake in my lifetime. Rest easy, grazing is safe. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding
  - randomdata 5y ago
    While I am sure there is an augment to be made that grazing is best, perennial grasses harvested for animal consumption with the manure applied back onto said land, with rotation only after several years, is a close second. Having cover and cereal crops in an animal-free rotation can help, but is not nearly the same. You may be missing the sentiment of the comment by being overly concerned about the details.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  Grazing with works well in the types of habitat where cows, sheep evolved. It wreaks absolute havoc on ecosystems that aren't used to it, such as Australia or reclaimed Brazilian jungle. https://wwf.panda.org/wwf_offices/australia/environmental_problems_in_australia/ https://wwf.panda.org/wwf_offices/australia/environmental_pr... The most sustainable meat to eat in Australia is kangaroos.
keithalewis 5y ago
But what would Henny Penny and Chicken Little have to say about this? At least SA still has the integrity to admit this is an opinion piece.
- deleted 5y ago
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rmason 5y ago
I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do things the past 170 years ever since Gregor Mendel and his pea breeding. The only difference now is that we have better tools. You cannot win everyone over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel
- varajelle 5y ago
  The so called organic food has little to do with environment preservation. One can use pesticides in organic farming. They just have to be "natural". But I wonder if these so called natural pesticides are any less dangerous. Also by requiring more soil to grow this isn't sustainable to feed the human population. Organic food is for a bunch of people scared of modern technology. Some usually take alternative medicine such as homeopathy and are afraid of electromagnetic waves. They claim buying organic is better for the environment and their health. But that's in fact the opposite
  - mercacona 5y ago
    I don’t know how it works everywhere, but in EU, buying organic means buying “regulated and supervised crops”. Organic, here, it’s more expensive mainly because your production needs to be accounted. Tech side, it’s as “modern” as the non-organic farming; but just regulated and controlled. Most of the non-organic crops in my country are just not at all supervised and uneducated farmers that constantly commit ecological harm because the more x I put in the field the better it should work. So, I prefer to pay a little more to eat a fruit produced with some sciences and technicians involved in the production.
    - varajelle 5y ago
      I'm also on the EU, and the EU has also many rules for "traditional" agriculture, it is also regulated and controlled. The problem I have with the Bio label is that these extra rules are counter productive. - no use of artificial pesticides (but still allow "natural" ones) - no use of mineral fertilizer - no use of GMO - no use of artificial food colouring or aromas or conservative. The thing is that there is little evidence that any of this is better for health or for the environment.
gravelc 5y ago
I work on developing pesticides based on RNA, which should significantly reduce adverse impacts on the environment (including soils) if commercialised and adopted. Biodegradable and highly species specific. https://phys.org/news/2021-01-rnai-based-products-sustainable-alternative-hazardous.html https://phys.org/news/2021-01-rnai-based-products-sustainabl... Still more development to be done, but there are alternatives to existing synthetic pesticides on the horizon.
- mssundaram 5y ago
  When we first started using pesticides we didn't understand the long term implications. How can you be so confident that you understand the long term implications of an arguably much more complex application (genetic vs chemical)?
  - gravelc 5y ago
    There could be unintended consequences associated with any crop protection approach - synthetic, organic, whatever. However, the active ingredient, double-stranded RNA, is ubiquitous in nature without obvious adverse impacts. It degrades very readily. It doesn't impact gene expression in mammals, even if completely homologous to a transcript (which is why in contrast to synthetic short interfering RNAs there's no obvious use as a therapeutic). It's an extraordinarily narrow spectrum approach, which is quite different to anything in the past, and why the approach is receiving a lot of interest and investment. There's ongoing synthesis of data on environmental impacts. Have a read: https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=env/jm/mono(2020)26&doclanguage=en https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocument...
ffhhj 5y ago
It's weird how drug trafficking from third world countries is illegal, but developed countries selling poisons that destroy natural resources in these lands is perfectly fine. Both must be illegal. Megacorps are always looking for small farmers in low-industry countries to adopt their chemical fertilizers and pesticides to fight native bugs that can be controlled with organic agriculture. These countries don't need to produce huge volumes, there is no need for all those imported poisons. Make them illegal and don't let them kill their nature as well.
rosetremiere 5y ago
In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives, but it's good to at least have a desire for change. I'm interested in any opinion from knowledgeable people on the subject! ¹ https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/20210613/popula-initiative-for-a-switzerland-without-artificial-pesticides.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/202106... ²https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/20210613/popular-initiative-for-clean-drinking-water-and-healthy-food.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/202106...
- samch93 5y ago
  Both initiatives are indeed quite drastic, but so is the decline in biodiversity. Double yes from my side!
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  > I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is they are highly confrontational and loathe to undo the policies they wore on their shirt for so long, often waiting until most of the senior people behind such decisions are gone. It creates this horrible inertia against adeptly experimenting with solutions. If politicians can offload some of the blame onto people for laws created, that's a good thing for society in my view.
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    This is awesome, under what conditions would Brexit be a) possible and b) reversed in the Swiss model?
cm2012 5y ago
The much demonized Roundup actually greatly reduces pesticide volume needed compared to older pesticides. Save the environment, love Monsanto.
- nerdbaggy 5y ago
  Glyphosate 100% has an affect on the soil creatures. If you read the papers that aren’t Monsanto/Bayer propaganda a picture starts to form.
- mro_name 5y ago
  in other words: greatly more toxic.
  - cm2012 5y ago
    No, less toxic.
    - mro_name 5y ago
      let me correct: poisonous. Toxicity is harm to humans, right?
sampo 5y ago
This is a skillfully written piece to raise anger. But if you look closely, there are some signs: This piece refers to a study [1]. As they mention, this Scientific American piece is written by 2 of the 5 authors of the study. 4 out of 5 of the study authors don't work in a conventional academic institution, but in nature conservation non-profits [2, 3]. The study [1] is titled "A Hazard Assessment". If you know the lingo, a hazard is different from a risk. Hazard means: This could potentially be a risk, if right conditions are met. The study itself [1] is a literature search of laboratory and field studies on the impact of pesticides on soil invertebrates. From [1]: > Conclusion > This paper constitutes a comprehensive review of the impacts of agricultural pesticides on soil invertebrates. We found that pesticide exposure negatively impacted soil invertebrates in 70.5% of 2,842 tested parameters from 394 reviewed studies. If you do a literature study on studies on how plant and insect poisons affect insects, the expected result is of course, insect poisons are poisonous to insects. And plant poisons can have observable effects, meeting the conditions of a hazard. Now, to what extend is farming "Killing the World's Soils", and to what extent can the negative effects of farming be attributed to pesticide use, soil tilling, biodiversity loss etc., this piece is not a high quality contribution. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2021.643847/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2021.6438... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Biological_Diversity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Biological_Diversit... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth
- deleted 5y ago
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- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  Think the people putting their names to this peer review should be noted: EDITED BY Christophe Darnault Clemson University, United States REVIEWED BY Roberta Fulthorpe University of Toronto Scarborough, Canada Alan Kolok University of Idaho, United States Kean Goh California Department of Pesticide Regulation, United States Do you plan to write a rebuttal to the journal and those who oversaw it at any point? Or just post here?
johnthedebs 5y ago
We have solutions to this for most (maybe all) contexts, at least as far as agriculture is concerned, in regenerative agriculture[0]. It requires a paradigm shift from the dominant type of agriculture taking place in the US and many other parts of the world, but it is not only better for soils and ecosystems – it's probably much better for our health as consumers, potentially more profitable for farmers, and can have an enormous positive impact in reigning in climate change. It can seem too good to be true, but consider that when we mess with one aspect of nature by say, growing mono-culture crops rather than poly-cultures, we end up needing to intervene in many other aspects of ecosystems. The choice to annually till fields and grow acres upon acres of single crops year after year means we also need to recreate (poorly) natural systems of fertility (fertilizers), competition defense (herbicides), pest defense (pesticides), and disease defense (fungicides). This model has other negative externalities as well, such as soil erosion, poor natural water infiltration and holding capacity, leaching of fertilizers and *-icides into surrounding areas and bodies of water which interrupt natural processes and are detrimental to life and health elsewhere, poor carbon sequestration, etc, etc. The core principles of regenerative agriculture are to mimic nature and take advantage of natural processes rather than fighting them at every step, and to avoid intervening whenever possible. In the same way that the fastest and most maintainable line of code is the one you don't have to write, the cheapest and most effective agricultural practice is the one you don't need to do. For those interested in a deep dive with a farmer from North Dakota who is very successfully putting these ideas into practice, see Gabe Brown[1] (who I first heard about here on HN, and for which I'm very grateful). If you're interested in agriculture, farming or even just gardening, I highly recommend watching the whole video. For a higher level and more accessible take, check out the documentary Kiss the Ground[2]. I've been trying to put these ideas into practice in my own ~100sq ft of growing space in NYC and, while it's still early in the growing season and hard to distinguish variables year-to-year, my garden is looking dramatically better this year[3] than at the same time in years past. Some of it for sure is a better sense of timing on my part and early warm weather here, but there are a lot of promising signs and I'm looking forward to seeing the state of things towards the end of the season when last year I had lost most of my tomato plants to pest pressures. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExXwGkJ1oGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExXwGkJ1oGI [2] https://kisstheground.com/ https://kisstheground.com/ [3] https://imgur.com/a/ybquJIX https://imgur.com/a/ybquJIX Edit: The article specifically mentions regenerative agriculture, but says "pesticide companies know that these practices are often accompanied by increased pesticide use." I think it's a misnomer to call something regenerative agriculture when pesticide use is even higher than in conventional agriculture.
agumonkey 5y ago
Are there any new ideas regarding small scale electronically controlled insect repellents and plant control ? I don't know .. like small ultrasonic transducers to annoy them or maybe LEDs .. or maybe changing pH conditions.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Small scale items in large scale industrial agriculture sounds like something that wouldn't work too great. And might cause even more issues. Makes me actually think how practical and ecological micro-drones would actually be? Have hundreds or thousands of these little things made out of plastic, with electronics and batteries in them. How do you track those and be sure each and everyone is responsibly recycled? It feels to me like something that would actually cause more issues than solve...
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    hmm right, near-passive sensors can be made to work long but actuators its another game
mro_name 5y ago
Science found out: Field poisons are toxic. Thanks for the quotable reference.
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jillesvangurp 5y ago
Legislation to shut down subsidies for non sustainably grown produce would transform the industry in a hurry because most of it is also not sustainable from an economic point of view and very dependent on subsidies. That's the tool to use to fix this. E.g. US corn subsidies are an anomaly. The world does not need so much corn and biofuels are a particularly lousy excuse to grow that much corn. Corn syrup is not an ingredient that is either common or high in demand outside the US. It's a market that only exists because of corn subsidies. In the same way, we're subsidizing soy, which gets exported from Brazil and from freshly burned down rain forest. The US is a close second for this stuff. Again subsidies combined with mostly very unsustainable styles of farming. Both industries depend on large scale use of pesticides and a few other unsustainable practices and exports to countries that look the other way. If you are a vegetarian and want to save the planet, stop eating unsustainably grown soy. If you are a meat eater, stop eating unsustainably grown meat where the animals grew up eating unsustainably grown corn and soy. At a macro level it's multiple layers of unsustainable practices that we subsidize so we can have some artificially cheap food that probably isn't that good for you. It's not cheap at all. You just pay for it via your taxes. And we're leaving the damage cleanup for future generations. We're just really good at allowing people to dodge the real cost of things. The Netherlands has a nice ongoing debate about reducing nitrogen emissions from mostly cattle and traffic. The reasoning goes as follows: high nox concentrations are bad for health (fact), therefore building close to where the concentrations are high is no longer allowed (because it kills people). This simple ruling basically shut down construction next to highways, which is where a lot of prime real estate is in the Netherlands. That is causing a lot of farmers to adapt their behavior because the communities they operate in are not cool with the high nox concentrations any more. They even reduced maximum speeds on the highways from 130 km/h to 100 km/h to cut down on the emissions and thus allow construction projects to resume. That basically happens when you put numbers on the damage, change the incentives, and put some simple rulings in place. This btw. happened under a mostly conservative right leaning government too. Headed by the party that not so long ago championed the raising of the speed limit to 130 km/h (VVD). The current government is more or less the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies. Highway loving VVD and farmer friendly CDA are two of the coalition parties. And they got this done. We should do the same with pesticides. There's plenty of good reasons to stop killing our environment like that. The least we can do is stop subsidizing that.
sofixa 5y ago
So is this about the world or US soils? The title suggests the former, but everything in the article and all the authors of the study are around the US. Considering the vastly different regulations and practices in the EU ( e.g. grazing, crop rotation are very popular) i suppose the situation is different.
- PoignardAzur 5y ago
  > Considering the vastly different regulations and practices in the EU ( e.g. grazing, crop rotation are very popular) Source? From what I heard, crop rotation here isn't widely used yet.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    What? I thought the corn-soybean rotation was the norm in the US?
    - PoignardAzur 5y ago
      I'm French.
      - saalweachter 5y ago
        Do you all not rotate? Just the same crop in the field year after year after year? That is so shocking to me; growing up in the Midwest we were always rotating the crops, usually between the standard mix of corn, soybeans and wheat, but occasionally through sorghum or a grass mix. I assumed it was the standard for conventional agriculture everywhere.
adreamingsoul 5y ago
I’m fascinated by soil and all the interactions between microorganisms, insects and plants. Does anyone have any recommendations for books on soil science (Edaphology)? Over the course of three years I transitioned a small plot from a monoculture into a thriving “forest garden”. My goal was to restore the soil health and utilised a variety of plants, insects, and mycelium to achieve that. It was an amazing adventure that taught me a lot and also helped me through a mental crises. That experience and experiment has motivated me to be a soil farmer. My biggest lesson was that pests and weeds are symptoms of a larger problem. INSTEAD of trying to manage them, look for what nature needs to manage them. For example, what attracts ladybugs? What environments are friendly for ladybugs?
rapnie 5y ago
In The Netherlands we have what we proudly call "The Green Heart", the rural area inbetween the cities of Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Eindhoven and Utrecht. But while this looks nice to the untrained eye, green pastures and all, it might as well be a desert. Monocrop grasslands with little to no life in the ground, hardly any insects let alone birds. Grown on industrial fertilizer, and sprayed with insecticides. It is quite sad. Netherlands, a tiny tiny country, has this crazy intensive meat and poultry industry. We are largest chicken exporter in the world [0] and no. 6 in pork exports [1]. And in agriculture we are surprisingly number 2 worldwide after the USA [2]. While this is all nice and stuff for our economy, it has many downsides. Small, sustainable farmers find it very hard to eek out a living, and even the large producers find it ever harder to get good income. All the animals crammed together in mega stables pose pandemic risks, and overall the environment is suffering. But what the technology being used shows is that higher yields are well possible, also with way more sustainable production methods. This should be the focus and then export that expertise around the world so we can all benefit. I hope that in Netherlands itself we can scale back the crazy industrial race to the bottom, replacing with a mixture of traditional small-scale best-practice and innovative new agrotech. [0] https://www.worldstopexports.com/chicken-exports-by-country/ https://www.worldstopexports.com/chicken-exports-by-country/ (2019) [1] https://www.bizvibe.com/blog/food-beverages/top-pork-producing-countries https://www.bizvibe.com/blog/food-beverages/top-pork-produci... (2018) [2] https://humboldt.global/top-agricultural-exporters/ https://humboldt.global/top-agricultural-exporters/
- aliasEli 5y ago
  In the Netherlands we are witnessing a dramatic reduction in meadow birds. One of the main suspects is the deteroration in soil life.
Finnotesorg 5y ago
This is one of the serious issues that should be addressed at a serious level. The thing is we want to change but we are not ready for it. For some of us Just money matters, not health.
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BTCOG 5y ago
I've planted a large variety of vegetables and clovers, buckwheat and things that wasps and bees love for several years. In the last two years of crop alone, I had absolutely no horn worms on any of my tomatoes or related Solanaceae family, no white moths able to lay eggs and destroy my kale, broccolis, or other greens and this is something if you're familiar with farming is unheard of without pesticides. I welcome so many yellow jackets and red wasps, hornets into our backyard that they just annihilate all those pests. The only thing I've had a tiny issue with is clusters of aphids in my tomatoes late season and I can just spray them down with a mild nicotine tea or mint family oils. If you get the ecosystem into balance, there is no need for chemical pesticides. Needing them is a sign of a total out of whack ecosystem in the first place. Mid summer season, it's fun to just sit back and watch 4-5 yellow jackets climbing up and down heirloom kale plants hunting. Without them, the kale would just about be leaf veins left propped up on stalks, as the greedy little worms will absolutely destroy all the leaf if left to their own devices. Don't spray wasps! They are just as crucial as honey bees.
- highstep 5y ago
  I also have found the same success. The more i lean into supporting insect diversity the more prolific my garden becomes. Do you have any tips for supporting wasps? I make sure to have water available for them at all times.
jtdev 5y ago
My next door neighbors just had a pesticide treatment sprayed on the entire exterior of their house... including patio furniture, outdoor cooking area, the yard that their young children play in... this just one week after a neighborhood wide mosquito treatment (I opted out and asked for an MSDS from the application company). I just don't understand people. I would rather see a spider/wasp/ant occasionally than be doused in pesticides.
mdavis6890 5y ago
It's easy to be mad about some outcome that you don't like. It's much harder to actively consider tradeoffs among various available (actual, not hypothetical) options. Pesticides raise crop yields and increase farmer productivity. Of course we could stop using pesticides, but then we would need to devote more labor to farming, losing out on whatever else that labor would have produced instead. We would have fewer haircuts, shoes, medical procedures and houses. Maybe that's okay - I'm not trying to argue that point. But we have to consider the tradeoffs.

390 points by pmastela 5y ago

Capitalism needs to be fixed immediately! The root cause is that short-term profits are more important than sustainability. Using pesticides is just one of many symptoms.

OnlyRepliesToBS 5y ago

glycophosphates

unchocked 5y ago

I'm dismayed at how little we seem to know about pesticides, neonicotinoids for example but probably a host of other types. It certainly stands to reason that industrial application of poisons is going to kill a lot of species and destabilize ecosystems. The decline of insect populations over several decades - which to me is symbolized by the near-extinction of the monarch butterfly, is probably more destabilizing to our environment than the loss of charismatic megafauna would be. Pesticide policy, if the example of DDT holds, can at least be changed - and hopefully soils and insect populations can recover with protection and management in the same way that raptor populations have recovered in recent years. It will take a lot of work.

fy20 5y ago
If anything I'd say the problem is we don't understand enough about how soil and its corresponding ecosystem works, the article even says that: > Currently, regulators completely ignore pesticides’ harm to earthworms, springtails, beetles and thousands of other subterranean species. Pesticides and herbicides are designed to kill certain things, with the assumption that "this is bad because it's not what I want to grow or it damages my crops", but that's missing a big part of the picture. The permaculture movement seems to be taking the right path, hopefully some of those concepts can be adopted by big ag before they damage the soil too much.
- dylan604 5y ago
  > before they damage the soil too much. That really depends on the definition of 'too much'. Does too much mean arid dry wasteland that no longer supports life at all? Does it mean the native flora&fauna no longer grow and everything that does grow must be artificially supported mean too much? Does using it all mean too much (I lean this way personally).
  - tremon 5y ago
    Yes. What does "using it all" even mean, given soil is a renewable resource? Should we "use all energy" from the Sun if we could, if that would mean we'd turn it into a brown dwarf 100 years from now?
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Someone I have been studying that is a step up in scale from permaculture is Jean-Martin Fortier [1] (inspired by Eliot Coleman [2]) who does a fully organic/biodynamic system. It is relatively small scale but high output for-profit farming. I am developing an open source robot that I hope will be able to farm this way, though it’s early days. [3] JM Fortier of course is only one of many skilled farmers throughout the world, but what I appreciate is that he has clearly documented his process in videos and text so I find it easy to pick up on. His new farm is larger in scale and getting more to the kind of production we need, though the largest commercial farms are still orders of magnitude larger. I have also been appreciating the No Till Market Garden Podcast and YouTube channel. [4] [1] https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs https://youtu.be/1BH0NkN6zHs [2] https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU https://youtu.be/cBKr9kPrpzU [3] https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk https://youtu.be/fFhTPHlPAAk [4] https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE https://youtu.be/9SVbLqJHMXE
  - mro_name 5y ago
    Permaculture is phantastic – however, how does it align with selling produce, i.e. removing material from the farm?
    - 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

Bees do touch soil. Quite often they like to collect water from rich, wet soils and dirty water. It's thought that they enjoy dirty water over clean water due to minerals.

hinkley 5y ago
I’ve seen both bees and wasps go nuts over seeps in wetlands. If you kill the bees, no food, but kill the wasps and you have more pests to deal with.

chewz 5y ago

Remind me to buy a pack of cotton t-shirts with "Stop pesticides" logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_cotton#Ecological_footprint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_cotton#Ecological_foot...

telesilla 5y ago
Interesting new fabric tech such as Tencel "cotton" (from fast growth drought resistant trees such as Eucalyptus) and Piñatex leather (food waste of pineapples) are hopeful alternatives.

calkuta 5y ago

If people cared they wouldn't be doing it

latch 5y ago

Dengue is a serious health threat in Singapore. Fogging (1) is pretty common. Now, the Singapore government says fogging should be used judiciously, not routinely. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. Many condos will fog once a week, year-round. Supposedly all operations must be submitted in the an "E-fogging Submission System", but as far as I can tell, there's no visibility into this. Singapore has also recently declared a "climate change emergency", and I'd consider biodiversity, at the very least, a part of that. My point is that: if the Singapore Government is unable or unwilling to manage this with a sense of urgency (or "emergency"), then I'm not generally hopeful. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogging_(insect_control) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogging_(insect_control)

refurb 5y ago
Dengue fever is a serious disease and it’s not rare in Singapore, there were 40,000+ cases in 2020 which is pretty high for a population of 5M. If they stopped their mosquito control efforts it would be disastrous for human health.
- bvrlt 5y ago
  Wouldn't a healthier ecosystem better handle mosquitoes, though? Predators of mosquitoes are bats, birds, fishes, frogs…
  - Mengkudulangsat 5y ago
    A healthy ecosystem in Singapore will be chock-full of mosquitoes and no humans. The island started out as a swamp.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Sometimes I think mother nature just looks at people shaking her head quoting the line from Last Crusade, "you chose poorly" on selecting where to live.
    - mrpopo 5y ago

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

Small time farmers who are at the mercy of handful of Big Corp. will do everything at their hands to increase the yield for meeting the demand laid down upon them or they perish. So this is not just a technical problem.

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hosh 5y ago
The documentary, Kiss the Earth talks about this, but it starts with a FDR-era government service that had been attempting to teach farmers about soil health for decades. A big part of this is that the solution to this comes from a very different way of seeing, a different way of solving problems. Yields of a specific crop from a farm practicing regenerative agriculture or permaculture is less than the yields of a monocropping farm. However, the profit from across all of the crops and livestock from farm practicing regenerative agriculture is much better per sq ft than conventional farming. It is also more resilient against crop failures and market swings. But using the paradigm from which conventional farming methods come from, regenerative agriculture is counter-intuitive. It first starts with seeing soil as a living organism, and the whole farm as a living system -- an ecosystem. From there, growing good crops require growing your soil. Feeding grazing livestock directly on cover plants not only helps grow the soil, pasture-raised livestock are happier and yield healthier meat. (So you don't just rotate crops, you also rotate grazers). I can go on.

timeinput 5y ago

Does anyone have sources for suggestions about what we should do? I read these articles, and worry, and wonder what can I do. It's not clear to me that buying organic mono-cropped bananas at the mega mart is in anyway better or worse than buying non-organic mono-cropped bananas. I'd really like to just build up some more understanding on what I can do in my daily life to make things not worse.

ed25519FUUU 5y ago
Support local farmers who follow better practices, such as low/no till or organic. Buy meat that was grazed on local grass, which is the single best thing we can do to build better soil. Buy things in season that grow well locally.
- refurb 5y ago
  Organic still uses pesticides, just “organic” ones. https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/national-list https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/national-... For crops it includes copper sulfate, peracetic acid, ferric phosphate.
  - 34679 5y ago
    Some very effective organic pesticides/fungicides are bacteria. Two examples are Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis for larvae that feed on roots[1] and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens, which out-competes soil pathogens[2] and prevents powdery mildew on foliage.[3] Research in this area is an important step toward learning how to build healthy soil instead of killing it. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis_israelensis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis_israele... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_amyloliquefaciens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_amyloliquefaciens [3]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2015.00883/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2015.0088...
holri 5y ago
You can join a CSA (Community supported agriculture) or join a local Foodcoop. Eat local things that grows naturally like weed in your area. For example, in my case I do not buy bananas at all, but organic apples from sources and land I know.

ed25519FUUU 5y ago

My observation is that smaller farmers, especially cottage farming, have a really good grasp on soil health and actively cultivate soil via grazing. Grazing is one of the best things we can do to build soil. Animals and the soil grew up and evolved together. It’s a shame the world is turning so strongly against meat, regardless of how it’s raised.

AlexandrB 5y ago
From Wikipedia: "Grazing systems supply about 9 percent of the world's production of beef ..."[1] I don't think there's going to be a 91% reduction in beef intake in my lifetime. Rest easy, grazing is safe. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding
- randomdata 5y ago
  While I am sure there is an augment to be made that grazing is best, perennial grasses harvested for animal consumption with the manure applied back onto said land, with rotation only after several years, is a close second. Having cover and cereal crops in an animal-free rotation can help, but is not nearly the same. You may be missing the sentiment of the comment by being overly concerned about the details.
Clewza313 5y ago
Grazing with works well in the types of habitat where cows, sheep evolved. It wreaks absolute havoc on ecosystems that aren't used to it, such as Australia or reclaimed Brazilian jungle. https://wwf.panda.org/wwf_offices/australia/environmental_problems_in_australia/ https://wwf.panda.org/wwf_offices/australia/environmental_pr... The most sustainable meat to eat in Australia is kangaroos.

keithalewis 5y ago

But what would Henny Penny and Chicken Little have to say about this? At least SA still has the integrity to admit this is an opinion piece.

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rmason 5y ago

I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do things the past 170 years ever since Gregor Mendel and his pea breeding. The only difference now is that we have better tools. You cannot win everyone over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

varajelle 5y ago
The so called organic food has little to do with environment preservation. One can use pesticides in organic farming. They just have to be "natural". But I wonder if these so called natural pesticides are any less dangerous. Also by requiring more soil to grow this isn't sustainable to feed the human population. Organic food is for a bunch of people scared of modern technology. Some usually take alternative medicine such as homeopathy and are afraid of electromagnetic waves. They claim buying organic is better for the environment and their health. But that's in fact the opposite
- mercacona 5y ago
  I don’t know how it works everywhere, but in EU, buying organic means buying “regulated and supervised crops”. Organic, here, it’s more expensive mainly because your production needs to be accounted. Tech side, it’s as “modern” as the non-organic farming; but just regulated and controlled. Most of the non-organic crops in my country are just not at all supervised and uneducated farmers that constantly commit ecological harm because the more x I put in the field the better it should work. So, I prefer to pay a little more to eat a fruit produced with some sciences and technicians involved in the production.
  - varajelle 5y ago
    I'm also on the EU, and the EU has also many rules for "traditional" agriculture, it is also regulated and controlled. The problem I have with the Bio label is that these extra rules are counter productive. - no use of artificial pesticides (but still allow "natural" ones) - no use of mineral fertilizer - no use of GMO - no use of artificial food colouring or aromas or conservative. The thing is that there is little evidence that any of this is better for health or for the environment.

gravelc 5y ago

I work on developing pesticides based on RNA, which should significantly reduce adverse impacts on the environment (including soils) if commercialised and adopted. Biodegradable and highly species specific. https://phys.org/news/2021-01-rnai-based-products-sustainable-alternative-hazardous.html https://phys.org/news/2021-01-rnai-based-products-sustainabl... Still more development to be done, but there are alternatives to existing synthetic pesticides on the horizon.

mssundaram 5y ago
When we first started using pesticides we didn't understand the long term implications. How can you be so confident that you understand the long term implications of an arguably much more complex application (genetic vs chemical)?
- gravelc 5y ago
  There could be unintended consequences associated with any crop protection approach - synthetic, organic, whatever. However, the active ingredient, double-stranded RNA, is ubiquitous in nature without obvious adverse impacts. It degrades very readily. It doesn't impact gene expression in mammals, even if completely homologous to a transcript (which is why in contrast to synthetic short interfering RNAs there's no obvious use as a therapeutic). It's an extraordinarily narrow spectrum approach, which is quite different to anything in the past, and why the approach is receiving a lot of interest and investment. There's ongoing synthesis of data on environmental impacts. Have a read: https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=env/jm/mono(2020)26&doclanguage=en https://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocument...

ffhhj 5y ago

It's weird how drug trafficking from third world countries is illegal, but developed countries selling poisons that destroy natural resources in these lands is perfectly fine. Both must be illegal. Megacorps are always looking for small farmers in low-industry countries to adopt their chemical fertilizers and pesticides to fight native bugs that can be controlled with organic agriculture. These countries don't need to produce huge volumes, there is no need for all those imported poisons. Make them illegal and don't let them kill their nature as well.

rosetremiere 5y ago

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives, but it's good to at least have a desire for change. I'm interested in any opinion from knowledgeable people on the subject! ¹ https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/20210613/popula-initiative-for-a-switzerland-without-artificial-pesticides.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/202106... ²https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/20210613/popular-initiative-for-clean-drinking-water-and-healthy-food.html https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/202106...

samch93 5y ago
Both initiatives are indeed quite drastic, but so is the decline in biodiversity. Double yes from my side!
BelenusMordred 5y ago
> I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is they are highly confrontational and loathe to undo the policies they wore on their shirt for so long, often waiting until most of the senior people behind such decisions are gone. It creates this horrible inertia against adeptly experimenting with solutions. If politicians can offload some of the blame onto people for laws created, that's a good thing for society in my view.
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  This is awesome, under what conditions would Brexit be a) possible and b) reversed in the Swiss model?

cm2012 5y ago

The much demonized Roundup actually greatly reduces pesticide volume needed compared to older pesticides. Save the environment, love Monsanto.

nerdbaggy 5y ago
Glyphosate 100% has an affect on the soil creatures. If you read the papers that aren’t Monsanto/Bayer propaganda a picture starts to form.
mro_name 5y ago
in other words: greatly more toxic.
- cm2012 5y ago
  No, less toxic.
  - mro_name 5y ago
    let me correct: poisonous. Toxicity is harm to humans, right?

sampo 5y ago

This is a skillfully written piece to raise anger. But if you look closely, there are some signs: This piece refers to a study [1]. As they mention, this Scientific American piece is written by 2 of the 5 authors of the study. 4 out of 5 of the study authors don't work in a conventional academic institution, but in nature conservation non-profits [2, 3]. The study [1] is titled "A Hazard Assessment". If you know the lingo, a hazard is different from a risk. Hazard means: This could potentially be a risk, if right conditions are met. The study itself [1] is a literature search of laboratory and field studies on the impact of pesticides on soil invertebrates. From [1]: > Conclusion > This paper constitutes a comprehensive review of the impacts of agricultural pesticides on soil invertebrates. We found that pesticide exposure negatively impacted soil invertebrates in 70.5% of 2,842 tested parameters from 394 reviewed studies. If you do a literature study on studies on how plant and insect poisons affect insects, the expected result is of course, insect poisons are poisonous to insects. And plant poisons can have observable effects, meeting the conditions of a hazard. Now, to what extend is farming "Killing the World's Soils", and to what extent can the negative effects of farming be attributed to pesticide use, soil tilling, biodiversity loss etc., this piece is not a high quality contribution. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2021.643847/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2021.6438... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Biological_Diversity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Biological_Diversit... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth

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BelenusMordred 5y ago
Think the people putting their names to this peer review should be noted: EDITED BY Christophe Darnault Clemson University, United States REVIEWED BY Roberta Fulthorpe University of Toronto Scarborough, Canada Alan Kolok University of Idaho, United States Kean Goh California Department of Pesticide Regulation, United States Do you plan to write a rebuttal to the journal and those who oversaw it at any point? Or just post here?

johnthedebs 5y ago

We have solutions to this for most (maybe all) contexts, at least as far as agriculture is concerned, in regenerative agriculture[0]. It requires a paradigm shift from the dominant type of agriculture taking place in the US and many other parts of the world, but it is not only better for soils and ecosystems – it's probably much better for our health as consumers, potentially more profitable for farmers, and can have an enormous positive impact in reigning in climate change. It can seem too good to be true, but consider that when we mess with one aspect of nature by say, growing mono-culture crops rather than poly-cultures, we end up needing to intervene in many other aspects of ecosystems. The choice to annually till fields and grow acres upon acres of single crops year after year means we also need to recreate (poorly) natural systems of fertility (fertilizers), competition defense (herbicides), pest defense (pesticides), and disease defense (fungicides). This model has other negative externalities as well, such as soil erosion, poor natural water infiltration and holding capacity, leaching of fertilizers and *-icides into surrounding areas and bodies of water which interrupt natural processes and are detrimental to life and health elsewhere, poor carbon sequestration, etc, etc. The core principles of regenerative agriculture are to mimic nature and take advantage of natural processes rather than fighting them at every step, and to avoid intervening whenever possible. In the same way that the fastest and most maintainable line of code is the one you don't have to write, the cheapest and most effective agricultural practice is the one you don't need to do. For those interested in a deep dive with a farmer from North Dakota who is very successfully putting these ideas into practice, see Gabe Brown[1] (who I first heard about here on HN, and for which I'm very grateful). If you're interested in agriculture, farming or even just gardening, I highly recommend watching the whole video. For a higher level and more accessible take, check out the documentary Kiss the Ground[2]. I've been trying to put these ideas into practice in my own ~100sq ft of growing space in NYC and, while it's still early in the growing season and hard to distinguish variables year-to-year, my garden is looking dramatically better this year[3] than at the same time in years past. Some of it for sure is a better sense of timing on my part and early warm weather here, but there are a lot of promising signs and I'm looking forward to seeing the state of things towards the end of the season when last year I had lost most of my tomato plants to pest pressures. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_agriculture [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExXwGkJ1oGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExXwGkJ1oGI [2] https://kisstheground.com/ https://kisstheground.com/ [3] https://imgur.com/a/ybquJIX https://imgur.com/a/ybquJIX Edit: The article specifically mentions regenerative agriculture, but says "pesticide companies know that these practices are often accompanied by increased pesticide use." I think it's a misnomer to call something regenerative agriculture when pesticide use is even higher than in conventional agriculture.

agumonkey 5y ago

Are there any new ideas regarding small scale electronically controlled insect repellents and plant control ? I don't know .. like small ultrasonic transducers to annoy them or maybe LEDs .. or maybe changing pH conditions.

Ekaros 5y ago
Small scale items in large scale industrial agriculture sounds like something that wouldn't work too great. And might cause even more issues. Makes me actually think how practical and ecological micro-drones would actually be? Have hundreds or thousands of these little things made out of plastic, with electronics and batteries in them. How do you track those and be sure each and everyone is responsibly recycled? It feels to me like something that would actually cause more issues than solve...
- agumonkey 5y ago
  hmm right, near-passive sensors can be made to work long but actuators its another game

mro_name 5y ago

Science found out: Field poisons are toxic. Thanks for the quotable reference.

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jillesvangurp 5y ago

Legislation to shut down subsidies for non sustainably grown produce would transform the industry in a hurry because most of it is also not sustainable from an economic point of view and very dependent on subsidies. That's the tool to use to fix this. E.g. US corn subsidies are an anomaly. The world does not need so much corn and biofuels are a particularly lousy excuse to grow that much corn. Corn syrup is not an ingredient that is either common or high in demand outside the US. It's a market that only exists because of corn subsidies. In the same way, we're subsidizing soy, which gets exported from Brazil and from freshly burned down rain forest. The US is a close second for this stuff. Again subsidies combined with mostly very unsustainable styles of farming. Both industries depend on large scale use of pesticides and a few other unsustainable practices and exports to countries that look the other way. If you are a vegetarian and want to save the planet, stop eating unsustainably grown soy. If you are a meat eater, stop eating unsustainably grown meat where the animals grew up eating unsustainably grown corn and soy. At a macro level it's multiple layers of unsustainable practices that we subsidize so we can have some artificially cheap food that probably isn't that good for you. It's not cheap at all. You just pay for it via your taxes. And we're leaving the damage cleanup for future generations. We're just really good at allowing people to dodge the real cost of things. The Netherlands has a nice ongoing debate about reducing nitrogen emissions from mostly cattle and traffic. The reasoning goes as follows: high nox concentrations are bad for health (fact), therefore building close to where the concentrations are high is no longer allowed (because it kills people). This simple ruling basically shut down construction next to highways, which is where a lot of prime real estate is in the Netherlands. That is causing a lot of farmers to adapt their behavior because the communities they operate in are not cool with the high nox concentrations any more. They even reduced maximum speeds on the highways from 130 km/h to 100 km/h to cut down on the emissions and thus allow construction projects to resume. That basically happens when you put numbers on the damage, change the incentives, and put some simple rulings in place. This btw. happened under a mostly conservative right leaning government too. Headed by the party that not so long ago championed the raising of the speed limit to 130 km/h (VVD). The current government is more or less the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies. Highway loving VVD and farmer friendly CDA are two of the coalition parties. And they got this done. We should do the same with pesticides. There's plenty of good reasons to stop killing our environment like that. The least we can do is stop subsidizing that.

sofixa 5y ago

So is this about the world or US soils? The title suggests the former, but everything in the article and all the authors of the study are around the US. Considering the vastly different regulations and practices in the EU ( e.g. grazing, crop rotation are very popular) i suppose the situation is different.

PoignardAzur 5y ago
> Considering the vastly different regulations and practices in the EU ( e.g. grazing, crop rotation are very popular) Source? From what I heard, crop rotation here isn't widely used yet.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  What? I thought the corn-soybean rotation was the norm in the US?
  - PoignardAzur 5y ago
    I'm French.
    - saalweachter 5y ago
      Do you all not rotate? Just the same crop in the field year after year after year? That is so shocking to me; growing up in the Midwest we were always rotating the crops, usually between the standard mix of corn, soybeans and wheat, but occasionally through sorghum or a grass mix. I assumed it was the standard for conventional agriculture everywhere.

adreamingsoul 5y ago

I’m fascinated by soil and all the interactions between microorganisms, insects and plants. Does anyone have any recommendations for books on soil science (Edaphology)? Over the course of three years I transitioned a small plot from a monoculture into a thriving “forest garden”. My goal was to restore the soil health and utilised a variety of plants, insects, and mycelium to achieve that. It was an amazing adventure that taught me a lot and also helped me through a mental crises. That experience and experiment has motivated me to be a soil farmer. My biggest lesson was that pests and weeds are symptoms of a larger problem. INSTEAD of trying to manage them, look for what nature needs to manage them. For example, what attracts ladybugs? What environments are friendly for ladybugs?

rapnie 5y ago

In The Netherlands we have what we proudly call "The Green Heart", the rural area inbetween the cities of Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Eindhoven and Utrecht. But while this looks nice to the untrained eye, green pastures and all, it might as well be a desert. Monocrop grasslands with little to no life in the ground, hardly any insects let alone birds. Grown on industrial fertilizer, and sprayed with insecticides. It is quite sad. Netherlands, a tiny tiny country, has this crazy intensive meat and poultry industry. We are largest chicken exporter in the world [0] and no. 6 in pork exports [1]. And in agriculture we are surprisingly number 2 worldwide after the USA [2]. While this is all nice and stuff for our economy, it has many downsides. Small, sustainable farmers find it very hard to eek out a living, and even the large producers find it ever harder to get good income. All the animals crammed together in mega stables pose pandemic risks, and overall the environment is suffering. But what the technology being used shows is that higher yields are well possible, also with way more sustainable production methods. This should be the focus and then export that expertise around the world so we can all benefit. I hope that in Netherlands itself we can scale back the crazy industrial race to the bottom, replacing with a mixture of traditional small-scale best-practice and innovative new agrotech. [0] https://www.worldstopexports.com/chicken-exports-by-country/ https://www.worldstopexports.com/chicken-exports-by-country/ (2019) [1] https://www.bizvibe.com/blog/food-beverages/top-pork-producing-countries https://www.bizvibe.com/blog/food-beverages/top-pork-produci... (2018) [2] https://humboldt.global/top-agricultural-exporters/ https://humboldt.global/top-agricultural-exporters/

aliasEli 5y ago
In the Netherlands we are witnessing a dramatic reduction in meadow birds. One of the main suspects is the deteroration in soil life.

Finnotesorg 5y ago

This is one of the serious issues that should be addressed at a serious level. The thing is we want to change but we are not ready for it. For some of us Just money matters, not health.

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BTCOG 5y ago

I've planted a large variety of vegetables and clovers, buckwheat and things that wasps and bees love for several years. In the last two years of crop alone, I had absolutely no horn worms on any of my tomatoes or related Solanaceae family, no white moths able to lay eggs and destroy my kale, broccolis, or other greens and this is something if you're familiar with farming is unheard of without pesticides. I welcome so many yellow jackets and red wasps, hornets into our backyard that they just annihilate all those pests. The only thing I've had a tiny issue with is clusters of aphids in my tomatoes late season and I can just spray them down with a mild nicotine tea or mint family oils. If you get the ecosystem into balance, there is no need for chemical pesticides. Needing them is a sign of a total out of whack ecosystem in the first place. Mid summer season, it's fun to just sit back and watch 4-5 yellow jackets climbing up and down heirloom kale plants hunting. Without them, the kale would just about be leaf veins left propped up on stalks, as the greedy little worms will absolutely destroy all the leaf if left to their own devices. Don't spray wasps! They are just as crucial as honey bees.

highstep 5y ago
I also have found the same success. The more i lean into supporting insect diversity the more prolific my garden becomes. Do you have any tips for supporting wasps? I make sure to have water available for them at all times.

jtdev 5y ago

My next door neighbors just had a pesticide treatment sprayed on the entire exterior of their house... including patio furniture, outdoor cooking area, the yard that their young children play in... this just one week after a neighborhood wide mosquito treatment (I opted out and asked for an MSDS from the application company). I just don't understand people. I would rather see a spider/wasp/ant occasionally than be doused in pesticides.

mdavis6890 5y ago

It's easy to be mad about some outcome that you don't like. It's much harder to actively consider tradeoffs among various available (actual, not hypothetical) options. Pesticides raise crop yields and increase farmer productivity. Of course we could stop using pesticides, but then we would need to devote more labor to farming, losing out on whatever else that labor would have produced instead. We would have fewer haircuts, shoes, medical procedures and houses. Maybe that's okay - I'm not trying to argue that point. But we have to consider the tradeoffs.