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The public drinking laws are not because the government thinks the average person can't be trusted. It's because the homeless population has a large drinking pr

The public drinking laws are not because the government thinks the average person can't be trusted. It's because the homeless population has a large drinking problem and it often results in people getting assaulted on the street. These laws let the police do something about this before it results in harm.

yoz-y 5y ago
If that’s the case then I think that the government is solving the wrong problem.
mschuster91 5y ago
> These laws let the police do something about this before it results in harm. Yeah, as if repression is the answer to homelessness. Homeless people drink or consume other drugs to relieve the various stress associated with being on the street (as evidenced by drinking and drug use amounts immediately going down in housing-first projects), or to self-medicate physical health problems (alcohol is an effective pain number) that the life style brings with it or the mental health conditions that caused their homelessness in the first place. Actually helping people with housing and healthcare would be a way more efficient usage of public funds than wasting it on police that is using it for power trips against the powerless.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  >Actually helping people with housing and healthcare would be a way more efficient usage of public funds than wasting it on police that is using it for power trips against the powerless. In Australia there is usually somewhat good access to housing/welfare. Certainly leaps and bounds ahead of the US. The problem is that your options are either a homeless shelter which prohibits drugs, or the welfare system which requires you to apply for jobs and attend checkups. To some people, neither of these options is desirable so they choose to live on the street. The system in Australia isn't perfect but it is fair to say that it's almost impossible to be involuntarily homeless for an extended period.
kvgr 5y ago
Does the brown paper bag magically fixes this situation?
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  No. The police aren't stupid, they know what you're doing. And are you really going to spend a Wednesday afternoon going to court arguing with a court official about a $60 ticket?
- harambae 5y ago
  It does if you're homeless, but keep in mind that the homeless are effectively judgement proof [0] and this technique didn't work for me as an electrical engineer (in Indiana) when I was cited. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
This certainly does not explain having such laws in the vast areas of the US that doesn't have such a homeless problem. While I know there are homeless folks everywhere, it isn't such an issue to pass special drinking laws. I think your drinking laws are more rooted in conservative Christianity and disdain for poor folks that might just drink up their welfare money somehow.
- porknubbins 5y ago
  I think it does because legal codes mostly do not evolve organically in every small town, they are just copied from elswehere, though enforcement which requires human discretion is more local of course.
- tekknik 5y ago
  The only effect Christianity had on drinking laws was not allowing the sale on Sundays before noon, with some places not allowing sale at all on Sundays. Banning drinking in public has more to do with not wanting your public face to be a bunch of drunk people.
yason 5y ago
often results in people getting assaulted on the street. These laws let the police do something about this Aren't there laws against assaulting people on the street that the police could use, then?
- twodave 5y ago
  Sure there are, but those require someone to be assaulted to enforce them. If they can short-circuit the process during the "drinking in public" preamble to the assault then one might say violence was prevented instead of punished. The perpetrator ends up with a lighter sentence (DIP not nearly as frowned upon as violent crimes) and the would-be-victims aren't even involved.
  - banannaise 5y ago
    Pre-crime! Just have the police harass the people most likely to commit crimes, then put them in jail for increasingly long times as their criminal record gets progressively longer. At least you understand that a lot of American policing is deliberately abusing poor people and minorities who aren't doing anything wrong, under the assumption that later they'll do something wrong.
    - twodave 5y ago
      What I understand is that talk like this is unnecessary and inflammatory. I haven't seen evidence to suggest that "a lot" of American policing involves officers abusing their power. It definitely happens and, when it does, needs to be dealt with. I have known and worked alongside enough law enforcement and emergency workers to know they're too in fear for their own lives most days to be making unnecessary trouble. Their top priority is to de-escalate situations and make it home to their families. It literally takes one wrong assumption or letting down of the guard in a bad situation to end up dead, so while I do sympathize with _anyone_ who has been wronged by authority, I can't support blanket statements like the above.
  - tastyfreeze 5y ago
    There are many laws like this that attempt to prevent an uncommon Bad Thing™ from happening at the expense of individual freedom. Some are created as a response to some event. Some are the result of some group pushing their moral values in law. I think we have seen that in most cases these types of laws that conflate correlation and causation are harmful and often abused to the detriment of specific groups.

yoz-y 5y ago

If that’s the case then I think that the government is solving the wrong problem.

mschuster91 5y ago

> These laws let the police do something about this before it results in harm. Yeah, as if repression is the answer to homelessness. Homeless people drink or consume other drugs to relieve the various stress associated with being on the street (as evidenced by drinking and drug use amounts immediately going down in housing-first projects), or to self-medicate physical health problems (alcohol is an effective pain number) that the life style brings with it or the mental health conditions that caused their homelessness in the first place. Actually helping people with housing and healthcare would be a way more efficient usage of public funds than wasting it on police that is using it for power trips against the powerless.

SilverRed 5y ago
>Actually helping people with housing and healthcare would be a way more efficient usage of public funds than wasting it on police that is using it for power trips against the powerless. In Australia there is usually somewhat good access to housing/welfare. Certainly leaps and bounds ahead of the US. The problem is that your options are either a homeless shelter which prohibits drugs, or the welfare system which requires you to apply for jobs and attend checkups. To some people, neither of these options is desirable so they choose to live on the street. The system in Australia isn't perfect but it is fair to say that it's almost impossible to be involuntarily homeless for an extended period.

kvgr 5y ago

Does the brown paper bag magically fixes this situation?

JohnWhigham 5y ago
No. The police aren't stupid, they know what you're doing. And are you really going to spend a Wednesday afternoon going to court arguing with a court official about a $60 ticket?
harambae 5y ago
It does if you're homeless, but keep in mind that the homeless are effectively judgement proof [0] and this technique didn't work for me as an electrical engineer (in Indiana) when I was cited. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof

Broken_Hippo 5y ago

This certainly does not explain having such laws in the vast areas of the US that doesn't have such a homeless problem. While I know there are homeless folks everywhere, it isn't such an issue to pass special drinking laws. I think your drinking laws are more rooted in conservative Christianity and disdain for poor folks that might just drink up their welfare money somehow.

porknubbins 5y ago
I think it does because legal codes mostly do not evolve organically in every small town, they are just copied from elswehere, though enforcement which requires human discretion is more local of course.
tekknik 5y ago
The only effect Christianity had on drinking laws was not allowing the sale on Sundays before noon, with some places not allowing sale at all on Sundays. Banning drinking in public has more to do with not wanting your public face to be a bunch of drunk people.

yason 5y ago

often results in people getting assaulted on the street. These laws let the police do something about this Aren't there laws against assaulting people on the street that the police could use, then?

twodave 5y ago
Sure there are, but those require someone to be assaulted to enforce them. If they can short-circuit the process during the "drinking in public" preamble to the assault then one might say violence was prevented instead of punished. The perpetrator ends up with a lighter sentence (DIP not nearly as frowned upon as violent crimes) and the would-be-victims aren't even involved.
- banannaise 5y ago
  Pre-crime! Just have the police harass the people most likely to commit crimes, then put them in jail for increasingly long times as their criminal record gets progressively longer. At least you understand that a lot of American policing is deliberately abusing poor people and minorities who aren't doing anything wrong, under the assumption that later they'll do something wrong.
  - twodave 5y ago
    What I understand is that talk like this is unnecessary and inflammatory. I haven't seen evidence to suggest that "a lot" of American policing involves officers abusing their power. It definitely happens and, when it does, needs to be dealt with. I have known and worked alongside enough law enforcement and emergency workers to know they're too in fear for their own lives most days to be making unnecessary trouble. Their top priority is to de-escalate situations and make it home to their families. It literally takes one wrong assumption or letting down of the guard in a bad situation to end up dead, so while I do sympathize with _anyone_ who has been wronged by authority, I can't support blanket statements like the above.
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  There are many laws like this that attempt to prevent an uncommon Bad Thing™ from happening at the expense of individual freedom. Some are created as a response to some event. Some are the result of some group pushing their moral values in law. I think we have seen that in most cases these types of laws that conflate correlation and causation are harmful and often abused to the detriment of specific groups.