8 ms·

You know what's interesting, China and Russia have been struggling for years to get something on the level of intel Westmere. And here comes Apple out of the bl

You know what's interesting, China and Russia have been struggling for years to get something on the level of intel Westmere. And here comes Apple out of the blue with a proprietary arch and hardware emulator; cinebench showing it to be around a x5650 xeon (Westmere). Easy. M1X and M2X in the making, too?!

dathinab 5y ago
It's not out of the blue and not even surprising. Look at this from this POV: - Apple started on custom ARM many years ago. - Apple isn't really smaller then Amd, and Amd also rewrote and restructured their architecture some years ago. - Apple hired many greatly skilled people with experience (e.g. which worked before with Intel) - Apples uses state of the art TSMC production methods, Intel doesn't and the "slow" custom chips from China and Russia don't use that either as they want to have chips controlled by them produced with methods controlled by them. (TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by Taiwan). - Apples had a well controlled "clean" use-case, where they bit by bit added more support. This includes that they could drop hardware 32 bit support and don't have any extensions they don't need for their Apple products, this can make thinks a lot easier. On the other hand x86 has a lot of old "stuff" still needing support and use cases are much less clear cut (wrt. thinks like how many PCI lanes need to be supported, how much RAM, etc.). This btw. is not limited to their CPUs but also (especially!) their GPUs and GPU drivers. So while Apple did a grate job it isn't really that surprising.
- properdine 5y ago
  > On the other hand x86 has a lot of old "stuff" still needing support and use cases are much less clear cut (wrt. thinks like how many PCI lanes need to be supported, how much RAM, etc.). Good point overall - the performance of Rosetta 2 helped facilitate much of this and - at least from what I've read - does seem to be surprising to folks in the space. So that also helped them out.
- panda88888 5y ago
  > ... (TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by Taiwan). Do you mean "TSMC production methods are based on tech controlled by Taiwan", or "TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by China/Russia"? Update: after reading the thread I think I understand that you meant TSMC production relies on tech/equipment from ASML, which is not controlled by Taiwan.
dylan604 5y ago
>China and Russia have been struggling for years Sometimes it's hard to figure out all of the things left out of the plans that were stolen. Some engineer saw something not working, looked at the plans, and then noticed where the plans were wrong. The change gets implemented, but the plans don't get updated. Anyone receiving the plans will not have those changes. Becareful of those plans that fall of the back of trucks.
nguyenkien 5y ago
Apple have at least 13 years experience.
GloriousKoji 5y ago
Not to dismiss the hard work the engineers at apple put in but China and Russia hasn't poached as many engineers over the years as Apple has.
- nosequel 5y ago
  That's correct, China just poaches the tech when it lands on their soil without paying a thing. At least Apple pays those they've poached a salary.
- dathinab 5y ago
  They also don't use TSMC's sub 10nm nodes. The whole point behind the effort of China and Russia is to have a CPU under their control, starting with the design but also including the manufacturing. And TSMC uses technology for their nodes which is not under their control at all. The amount of expertise China already has and will accumulate in the next decades should not be underestimated.
  - astrange 5y ago
    > And TSMC uses technology for their nodes which is not under their control at all. Note it's also not under TSMC's control - a lot of fab technology comes from other suppliers like ASML in Europe.
- mananaysiempre 5y ago
  The Russian (Soviet, really) digital electronics story is just unimaginably sad. There were plenty of capable electronics engineers (still are, though many of them are languishing in poverty, obscurity, and/or retirement), but the Soviet state essentially shut down all research into original computer architectures in the early 70s after the BESM-6 (q.v.) and proclaimed a strategy of copying Western machines. As will all research, a gap a decade or so long essentially wiped the institutional memory. (Cf. the US rocket engineers forgetting how to build large engines after the ignominious end of the Apollo project, or the US particle physicists largely forgetting how to build particle accelerators after the untimely termination of the SSC.) The closest thing to an original Soviet consumer-oriented computer in 1991 were the Elektronika programmable calculators, which sparked a tremendous following but are downright pitiful compared to contemporary HP designs. For reasons that are unknown to me in detail but probably have to do with the general consumer-hostility of Soviet economic planning and industry, the Soviet Union also never really figured out how to make good ICs (barring the arcane discipline of space-hardened electronics); even separately-packaged transistors were kind of crap for a long time. As for modern Russia, both expected corruption-adjusted research funding and the probability of starting a technology business that would survive the grubby hands of petty officials are best rounded off to zero. There are occasionally some very lucky or very well-connected groups that manage to get some work done, but these are small (reproducing an established technology takes time, but not more than several roomfuls of researchers) and infrequent. Why people (who don’t have a vested interest in them) compare these to Apple or Intel I just can’t understand—this is not at all like 1960s IBM vs the Soviet Union. I say all of this with the greatest respect to the stubborn people who try to do engineering under the current Russian regime. I’m only trying to realistically describe the hand they were dealt and the resulting prospects.
strangemonad 5y ago
Definitely not out of the blue. This has been a long and steady march
mhh__ 5y ago
Not only do Apple have decades of experience both as themselves and PA Semi, they can also probably outspend efforts that this countries could do politically (Russia yes, China probably not, but you get the idea) especially when weighted against their ease of acquiring information.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Also Intrinsity.
bayindirh 5y ago
> And here comes Apple out of the blue with a proprietary arch and hardware emulator... Apple is designing processors and GPUs at least since iPad2's tri-core GPU. They're neither coming out of the blue, nor newbies in this game.
foobiekr 5y ago
The team behind the M1 has been doing high performance chips since they did a PowerPC chip in _2005_ and has been doing custom low-power apple arm CPUs for almost 14 years.

dathinab 5y ago

It's not out of the blue and not even surprising. Look at this from this POV: - Apple started on custom ARM many years ago. - Apple isn't really smaller then Amd, and Amd also rewrote and restructured their architecture some years ago. - Apple hired many greatly skilled people with experience (e.g. which worked before with Intel) - Apples uses state of the art TSMC production methods, Intel doesn't and the "slow" custom chips from China and Russia don't use that either as they want to have chips controlled by them produced with methods controlled by them. (TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by Taiwan). - Apples had a well controlled "clean" use-case, where they bit by bit added more support. This includes that they could drop hardware 32 bit support and don't have any extensions they don't need for their Apple products, this can make thinks a lot easier. On the other hand x86 has a lot of old "stuff" still needing support and use cases are much less clear cut (wrt. thinks like how many PCI lanes need to be supported, how much RAM, etc.). This btw. is not limited to their CPUs but also (especially!) their GPUs and GPU drivers. So while Apple did a grate job it isn't really that surprising.

properdine 5y ago
> On the other hand x86 has a lot of old "stuff" still needing support and use cases are much less clear cut (wrt. thinks like how many PCI lanes need to be supported, how much RAM, etc.). Good point overall - the performance of Rosetta 2 helped facilitate much of this and - at least from what I've read - does seem to be surprising to folks in the space. So that also helped them out.
panda88888 5y ago
> ... (TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by Taiwan). Do you mean "TSMC production methods are based on tech controlled by Taiwan", or "TSMC production methods are based on tech not controlled by China/Russia"? Update: after reading the thread I think I understand that you meant TSMC production relies on tech/equipment from ASML, which is not controlled by Taiwan.

dylan604 5y ago

>China and Russia have been struggling for years Sometimes it's hard to figure out all of the things left out of the plans that were stolen. Some engineer saw something not working, looked at the plans, and then noticed where the plans were wrong. The change gets implemented, but the plans don't get updated. Anyone receiving the plans will not have those changes. Becareful of those plans that fall of the back of trucks.

nguyenkien 5y ago

Apple have at least 13 years experience.

GloriousKoji 5y ago

Not to dismiss the hard work the engineers at apple put in but China and Russia hasn't poached as many engineers over the years as Apple has.

nosequel 5y ago
That's correct, China just poaches the tech when it lands on their soil without paying a thing. At least Apple pays those they've poached a salary.
dathinab 5y ago
They also don't use TSMC's sub 10nm nodes. The whole point behind the effort of China and Russia is to have a CPU under their control, starting with the design but also including the manufacturing. And TSMC uses technology for their nodes which is not under their control at all. The amount of expertise China already has and will accumulate in the next decades should not be underestimated.
- astrange 5y ago
  > And TSMC uses technology for their nodes which is not under their control at all. Note it's also not under TSMC's control - a lot of fab technology comes from other suppliers like ASML in Europe.
mananaysiempre 5y ago
The Russian (Soviet, really) digital electronics story is just unimaginably sad. There were plenty of capable electronics engineers (still are, though many of them are languishing in poverty, obscurity, and/or retirement), but the Soviet state essentially shut down all research into original computer architectures in the early 70s after the BESM-6 (q.v.) and proclaimed a strategy of copying Western machines. As will all research, a gap a decade or so long essentially wiped the institutional memory. (Cf. the US rocket engineers forgetting how to build large engines after the ignominious end of the Apollo project, or the US particle physicists largely forgetting how to build particle accelerators after the untimely termination of the SSC.) The closest thing to an original Soviet consumer-oriented computer in 1991 were the Elektronika programmable calculators, which sparked a tremendous following but are downright pitiful compared to contemporary HP designs. For reasons that are unknown to me in detail but probably have to do with the general consumer-hostility of Soviet economic planning and industry, the Soviet Union also never really figured out how to make good ICs (barring the arcane discipline of space-hardened electronics); even separately-packaged transistors were kind of crap for a long time. As for modern Russia, both expected corruption-adjusted research funding and the probability of starting a technology business that would survive the grubby hands of petty officials are best rounded off to zero. There are occasionally some very lucky or very well-connected groups that manage to get some work done, but these are small (reproducing an established technology takes time, but not more than several roomfuls of researchers) and infrequent. Why people (who don’t have a vested interest in them) compare these to Apple or Intel I just can’t understand—this is not at all like 1960s IBM vs the Soviet Union. I say all of this with the greatest respect to the stubborn people who try to do engineering under the current Russian regime. I’m only trying to realistically describe the hand they were dealt and the resulting prospects.

strangemonad 5y ago

Definitely not out of the blue. This has been a long and steady march

mhh__ 5y ago

Not only do Apple have decades of experience both as themselves and PA Semi, they can also probably outspend efforts that this countries could do politically (Russia yes, China probably not, but you get the idea) especially when weighted against their ease of acquiring information.

ethbr0 5y ago
Also Intrinsity.

bayindirh 5y ago

> And here comes Apple out of the blue with a proprietary arch and hardware emulator... Apple is designing processors and GPUs at least since iPad2's tri-core GPU. They're neither coming out of the blue, nor newbies in this game.

foobiekr 5y ago

The team behind the M1 has been doing high performance chips since they did a PowerPC chip in _2005_ and has been doing custom low-power apple arm CPUs for almost 14 years.