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Funny you bring up the exponential video, a classic I haven't seen in a decade. But yes, I know it. Bitcoin's energy use isn't exponential towards infinity. As

by fleddr 5y ago

Funny you bring up the exponential video, a classic I haven't seen in a decade. But yes, I know it. Bitcoin's energy use isn't exponential towards infinity. As soon as it hits real world caps (lack of stranded energy, regulation, profitability ratio of miners in decline, difficulty automatically adjusts). It seems we disagree overall on crypto, and that is fine. I'm going to selectively respond given the large amount of points you address. As for the energy part, the technicals (energy mix, stranded energy, emissions) are a discussion on their own and reality on the ground is fast moving. I do not consider the issue resolved, I consider it smaller than projected. In particular, your claim that the convenience and laziness of leaving electronics plugged in justifies wasting energy whilst using this same energy for sound money to be problematic, shows privilege. Bitcoin is incredibly popular in Venezuela, Turkey, authoritarian nations with a rapidly inflating currency. One of very few ways for underprivileged citizens in said countries to protect/grow some of their wealth. In Africa, nodes are growing the most currently, as several projects aim to implement the same basic life raft. Back home (developed nations), the youngest generations struggle to build up wealth. Never before in history have the young owned such small piece of the pie and never before were their debts so high. Middle class seems entirely out of reach for them. That's why it's not surprising that specifically they jump on crypto. And lastly, even for those already in middle class not necessarily requiring crypto as a life raft, there's nothing wrong with them trying to build wealth, unless you also oppose to people investing in stock, real estate, etc. You probably have the opinion that Bitcoin is not a solution for these people, but I want you to acknowledge that the problem it tries to solve and the macro backdrop that has led to its creation, is very much real. Bitcoin aims to be hard money, and hard money has humanitarian value infinitely larger than leaving your phone plugged in. As for privacy, you're again being quite selective in your outrage. We know that almost anything able to connect humans can be used for good and bad. WhatsApp is end to end encrypted and proven to be used in terrorist attacks in Europe. Yet nobody has called for the ban of WhatsApp. You intentionally take the bad faith angle for privacy as if this feature was specifically designed to do unlawful things. No, it is designed as part of the separation of state and money. A good faith goal, a humanitarian goal. Just like WhatsApp basically is designed for good, to allow billions of people to connect with each other. Bitcoin is a store of value, yet a volatile one. That's because it's still early. It's likely to reach a 10T market cap. A maximalist would project 100T, but I'm not sold on that idea. The more realistic projection, 10T, would not make it an existential threat to the existing financial system. It would just be digital gold. Bonds and derivatives are a few hundred times larger. I'll end with a philosophical note. One you would wildly disagree with, but that's the point of a debate. Our current system depends on perpetual growth. Maximize work, productivity, consumption, even population growth. Only endless growth keeps the system alive, and even barely so. It rapes the planet and cruelly still leads to enormous inequality. As such, I don't consider it very much of a threat when money has no inflation or is deflationary. We should work less, consume less, and return to a more sane standard. This is going to happen anyway due to further automation. The current system treats people like economic cannon fodder. If the current system has no regard for people, don't be surprised that people turn their back on it and seek a life raft or early exit. Anyway, thanks for the debate, this was my last reply.

knorker 5y ago
> Bitcoin's energy use isn't exponential towards infinity. Nothing is. That's kind of the point. > As soon as it hits real world caps Do you think that will be before or after every single use of electricity becomes metered? We already lost most free tier trials of any sort of compute (CI, VMs, etc). I'm expecting that hotels will start metering electricity for guests at some point, because some asshole is going to rent rooms for mining rigs. Someone's going to put a mining rig in the public bathroom. In the curtesy outlets in airports. There is no "cap", it's a constant escalation of theft. All there is is a place of diminishing returns for the thieves. > your claim that the convenience and laziness of leaving electronics plugged in justifies wasting energy What the actual fuck. This is literally the opposite of what I said. Literally the exact words "I'm not justifying it" is what I said. > Back home (developed nations), the youngest generations struggle to build up wealth. Never before in history have the young owned such small piece of the pie and never before were their debts so high. Middle class seems entirely out of reach for them. That's why it's not surprising that specifically they jump on crypto. So you agree that it is speculation, not currency? > there's nothing wrong with them trying to build wealth, On that level, no. If you rob a bank to do it, yes. > One you would wildly disagree with, but that's the point of a debate. Ironically, no it's not. You think the point of debate is to increase disagreement? But no, I do not disagree with anything you said after that. That's almost the only thing you said that was reasonable.
- fleddr 5y ago
  The misuse or "theft" of semi-public energy really is grasping at straws. All but Bitcoin uses or will use PoS, which requires little energy. Bitcoin itself requires such computing power that the petty theft of energy won't ever mine a single sat. You didn't justify leaving electronics plugged in, you said it provided value: convenience. If you'd calm down and read between the lines, see the overall point that "value" is subjective. Surely we can point out several energy consumers offering questionable or no value. The popular narrative is that Bitcoin offers no value at all, which I tried to counter. Clearly it has value. Maybe not to you, but it does to 100m+ users and exponentially growing. And the value it offers ranges from a humanitarian life raft to pure greed, yet value it is. True, I do not consider Bitcoin a currency as in a payment currency. Its currently useless for that in a technical sense, but also in a financial sense. You do not want to spend a deflationary asset. I consider it an asset, banks literally call it a new asset class. Is it speculative? Yes and no. Short term it is, day to day its clearly volatile and actively manipulated by traders (doing longs, shorts, leverage). So as a "store of value" on the short term, it's a failure. With a bank account, if I put in 10K today, I can take out 10K the day after. With Bitcoin, that 10K might be 9K or 12K, who knows? Longer term, it's less speculative. It's deflationary, aiming to at least counter fiat inflation, yet in reality far surpass it in growth, doing 5-10x price actions every halving, and about 200% per year on average. That's the track record. I can't predict the future. I think the point of a debate is to discuss opposing views. They don't have to grow further apart, but they might. I also don't mind a hot debate, nor am I frustrated or upset with you. My point isn't too "win". Still, nice to agree on one point in the end. Have a great day.

by fleddr 5y ago

knorker 5y ago

> Bitcoin's energy use isn't exponential towards infinity. Nothing is. That's kind of the point. > As soon as it hits real world caps Do you think that will be before or after every single use of electricity becomes metered? We already lost most free tier trials of any sort of compute (CI, VMs, etc). I'm expecting that hotels will start metering electricity for guests at some point, because some asshole is going to rent rooms for mining rigs. Someone's going to put a mining rig in the public bathroom. In the curtesy outlets in airports. There is no "cap", it's a constant escalation of theft. All there is is a place of diminishing returns for the thieves. > your claim that the convenience and laziness of leaving electronics plugged in justifies wasting energy What the actual fuck. This is literally the opposite of what I said. Literally the exact words "I'm not justifying it" is what I said. > Back home (developed nations), the youngest generations struggle to build up wealth. Never before in history have the young owned such small piece of the pie and never before were their debts so high. Middle class seems entirely out of reach for them. That's why it's not surprising that specifically they jump on crypto. So you agree that it is speculation, not currency? > there's nothing wrong with them trying to build wealth, On that level, no. If you rob a bank to do it, yes. > One you would wildly disagree with, but that's the point of a debate. Ironically, no it's not. You think the point of debate is to increase disagreement? But no, I do not disagree with anything you said after that. That's almost the only thing you said that was reasonable.

fleddr 5y ago
The misuse or "theft" of semi-public energy really is grasping at straws. All but Bitcoin uses or will use PoS, which requires little energy. Bitcoin itself requires such computing power that the petty theft of energy won't ever mine a single sat. You didn't justify leaving electronics plugged in, you said it provided value: convenience. If you'd calm down and read between the lines, see the overall point that "value" is subjective. Surely we can point out several energy consumers offering questionable or no value. The popular narrative is that Bitcoin offers no value at all, which I tried to counter. Clearly it has value. Maybe not to you, but it does to 100m+ users and exponentially growing. And the value it offers ranges from a humanitarian life raft to pure greed, yet value it is. True, I do not consider Bitcoin a currency as in a payment currency. Its currently useless for that in a technical sense, but also in a financial sense. You do not want to spend a deflationary asset. I consider it an asset, banks literally call it a new asset class. Is it speculative? Yes and no. Short term it is, day to day its clearly volatile and actively manipulated by traders (doing longs, shorts, leverage). So as a "store of value" on the short term, it's a failure. With a bank account, if I put in 10K today, I can take out 10K the day after. With Bitcoin, that 10K might be 9K or 12K, who knows? Longer term, it's less speculative. It's deflationary, aiming to at least counter fiat inflation, yet in reality far surpass it in growth, doing 5-10x price actions every halving, and about 200% per year on average. That's the track record. I can't predict the future. I think the point of a debate is to discuss opposing views. They don't have to grow further apart, but they might. I also don't mind a hot debate, nor am I frustrated or upset with you. My point isn't too "win". Still, nice to agree on one point in the end. Have a great day.