3 ms·

on the point of the GC being a good thing to have, this is true, but not when your main objective is to replace C++, C++ key advantage being RAII deterministic

on the point of the GC being a good thing to have, this is true, but not when your main objective is to replace C++, C++ key advantage being RAII deterministic manual memory management You cant replace C++ with GC language, even 10 years ago this should have been evident to a seasoned developers such as Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu Sometimes great developers are bad product managers Anyway, with Rust and Go, D have no where to go, I don't think it should be fixed to appeal to a wider user base, the only good strategic move they can do today, it make it better for the current user base, they have few big users, they should focus on them and the language will fade once those users move on to something else

mhh__ 5y ago
Then don't use the GC? Ignoring that a lot of C++ developers are practically incompetent and completely unable to separate their ideology from the actual requirements of their software (I note that not one single even anecdote has been mentioned regarding the GC in this thread), D gives you the tools to do that already. I work argue not as polished as C++, but that really doesn't matter if you set out to write a new project. Also, if you think existing D users are going to replace D with Go I don't know what to say to you. Go and Rust are literally punchlines without a need for a joke in discussions I've had with many senior people at these companies (Mostly Go). The reasons why people use D are so utterly detached from everything that has been discussed in this thread that I don't know what to say to you. Go is a bad programming language, pure and simple, good ecosystem, awful language.
destructionator 5y ago
> your main objective is to replace C++ D's main objective is to be useful. I did some hobby C++ that I replaced with D, but my main D migration was actually from PHP.
pjmlp 5y ago
You surely can, it depends on the domain. "Lockheed Martin reviewed various options for the Aegis Open Architecture including the programming language and execution environment for the system. In their experiments, they found that HotSpot Java code ran comparable to C++ on an experimental 250 millisecond periodic workload. At the same time, they found that the Java language provided superior abstraction and encapsulation than C++, and they judged that retraining their existing staff of CMS-2 programmers to become effective in Java would have lower risks than attempting to train them in C++." https://www.ptc.com/en/blogs/plm/ptc-perc-virtual-machine-technology-at-the-of-aegis-the-shield-of-the-fleet https://www.ptc.com/en/blogs/plm/ptc-perc-virtual-machine-te... So there you have it, Java powering battleship weapons targeting systems, after replacing C++.
- systems 5y ago
  HotSpot was not the mainstream JVM I see now its been opensourced, and apparently, np longer in active development, and I dont know how much of it made it into mainstream Java Java is one of the top 3-5 most popular languages, and have huge backing So its understandable that people found a way to make it fast, and honeslty, i dont really know how much effort does this require, but it seems from your example, it less than what C++ need This all in all, seem counter intuitive, if Java is really as fast as C++, why is it that mainstream knowledge suggest otherwise Either, your example is hiding something, or there is other reasons people still use C++ when they need high performance D was meant to replace C++ not be a fast Java like language, I would argue, it achieved neither D wanted to be a mainstream language, this is why the adopted the C/C++/Java style of programming, and again they didnt achieve this objective D is not instinct, it still have a small dedicate user base, I just wholeheartedly think, today, you have far better options: Rust, Go, OCaml , C# , Kotlin
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    My example is not hiding anything beyond the fact that most people are clueless about how big Java ecosystem actually is. Not everyone is doing Websites or Android apps. PTC isn't using Hotspot, rather their own JVM implementation. Just like C++, Java enjoys multiple implementations. Just like C++, the best ones for embedded deployment with soft real time capabilities, are commercial, directly supported by hardware vendors. D's biggest failure so far is not having a Google or Apple behind it, that would push the language no matter what naysayers have to say against the language. Just like on iOS and Android, wanna play? Here are the allowed list of toys.
    - systems 5y ago
      D had Andrei Alexandrescu behind it for years, he worked at facebook for a while and tried to push D there, and they did used D for while Andrei is a big deal i would say Since then FB moved on the build their own Ocaml based language reasonml Julia doesn't have a big company behind, yet the language is steadily climbing the popularity ladder (and i doubt they have anyone at the calibre of Andrei Alexandrescu, but again, good pogrammer is not a good program manager) D is not popular, because its leader failed at making it popular, they failed to give the qualities that would make it popular

mhh__ 5y ago

Then don't use the GC? Ignoring that a lot of C++ developers are practically incompetent and completely unable to separate their ideology from the actual requirements of their software (I note that not one single even anecdote has been mentioned regarding the GC in this thread), D gives you the tools to do that already. I work argue not as polished as C++, but that really doesn't matter if you set out to write a new project. Also, if you think existing D users are going to replace D with Go I don't know what to say to you. Go and Rust are literally punchlines without a need for a joke in discussions I've had with many senior people at these companies (Mostly Go). The reasons why people use D are so utterly detached from everything that has been discussed in this thread that I don't know what to say to you. Go is a bad programming language, pure and simple, good ecosystem, awful language.

destructionator 5y ago

> your main objective is to replace C++ D's main objective is to be useful. I did some hobby C++ that I replaced with D, but my main D migration was actually from PHP.

pjmlp 5y ago

You surely can, it depends on the domain. "Lockheed Martin reviewed various options for the Aegis Open Architecture including the programming language and execution environment for the system. In their experiments, they found that HotSpot Java code ran comparable to C++ on an experimental 250 millisecond periodic workload. At the same time, they found that the Java language provided superior abstraction and encapsulation than C++, and they judged that retraining their existing staff of CMS-2 programmers to become effective in Java would have lower risks than attempting to train them in C++." https://www.ptc.com/en/blogs/plm/ptc-perc-virtual-machine-technology-at-the-of-aegis-the-shield-of-the-fleet https://www.ptc.com/en/blogs/plm/ptc-perc-virtual-machine-te... So there you have it, Java powering battleship weapons targeting systems, after replacing C++.

systems 5y ago
HotSpot was not the mainstream JVM I see now its been opensourced, and apparently, np longer in active development, and I dont know how much of it made it into mainstream Java Java is one of the top 3-5 most popular languages, and have huge backing So its understandable that people found a way to make it fast, and honeslty, i dont really know how much effort does this require, but it seems from your example, it less than what C++ need This all in all, seem counter intuitive, if Java is really as fast as C++, why is it that mainstream knowledge suggest otherwise Either, your example is hiding something, or there is other reasons people still use C++ when they need high performance D was meant to replace C++ not be a fast Java like language, I would argue, it achieved neither D wanted to be a mainstream language, this is why the adopted the C/C++/Java style of programming, and again they didnt achieve this objective D is not instinct, it still have a small dedicate user base, I just wholeheartedly think, today, you have far better options: Rust, Go, OCaml , C# , Kotlin
- pjmlp 5y ago
  My example is not hiding anything beyond the fact that most people are clueless about how big Java ecosystem actually is. Not everyone is doing Websites or Android apps. PTC isn't using Hotspot, rather their own JVM implementation. Just like C++, Java enjoys multiple implementations. Just like C++, the best ones for embedded deployment with soft real time capabilities, are commercial, directly supported by hardware vendors. D's biggest failure so far is not having a Google or Apple behind it, that would push the language no matter what naysayers have to say against the language. Just like on iOS and Android, wanna play? Here are the allowed list of toys.
  - systems 5y ago
    D had Andrei Alexandrescu behind it for years, he worked at facebook for a while and tried to push D there, and they did used D for while Andrei is a big deal i would say Since then FB moved on the build their own Ocaml based language reasonml Julia doesn't have a big company behind, yet the language is steadily climbing the popularity ladder (and i doubt they have anyone at the calibre of Andrei Alexandrescu, but again, good pogrammer is not a good program manager) D is not popular, because its leader failed at making it popular, they failed to give the qualities that would make it popular