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I don't get why you are being downvoted. A good trackpad under a keyboard (like on the Macbooks) is probably the (or at least, my) best input method. I would pa

by pjerem 5y ago

I don't get why you are being downvoted. A good trackpad under a keyboard (like on the Macbooks) is probably the (or at least, my) best input method. I would pay high price for a desktop keyboard with a qualitative touchpad right under the keyboard.

foldr 5y ago
Indeed. If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts can be more efficient in some specific cases of course (e.g. moving to the beginning of the next word, or something like that). But I see no point in memorizing the more obscure shortcuts when the trackpad works so efficiently and requires no thought or memorization.
- imiric 5y ago
  The difference is that with a pointer device you need to control the input very carefully and precisely, which wastes time and brain cycles. A misclick could result in either maximizing or closing a window. Consecutive clicks can be interpreted differently depending on the configured period. Dragging and dropping is awkward, etc. On any trackpad other than Apple's this becomes even more difficult. Gestures are nice but also require nuance and IME don't become part of muscle memory as quickly as keyboard use does. Keyboard-driven workflows have no such issues. A keyboard shortcut is an immediate command to the computer to perform an action, and if that's something you do often, it will save you time and effort right away. You'll memorize it soon and forget about it since it will become part of muscle memory. > If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. But moving "to a location on screen" is never a challenge worth using keyboard shortcuts for. If moving a cursor is your only UI option then a trackpad will be more efficient than doing the same with a keyboard of course. What you should do is use hotkeys to perform the action you would with a pointer so that you don't have to move it to begin with.
  - foldr 5y ago
    I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I find my MacBook trackpad to be a fast and precise method of placing the cursor at an arbitrary location within a text buffer. Outside of certain special cases it is faster for this purpose than fiddling around with keyboard shortcuts. There should not be any significant mental overhead associated with using a pointer device if you are sufficiently practiced at it. If trackpads don’t work well for you then don’t use them. I believe you, and have no interest in proving that your favored working methods are suboptimal. However, having tried the ‘keyboard first’ approach, I know that it is less efficient for me. I do tire of the ritual haranguing of anyone who notes that they find the use of pointer devices an aid to their working efficiency.
    - imiric 5y ago
      > I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that "it's logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts". I thought you were talking about moving the cursor to a general area of the screen, not within the context of a text buffer, but there I still think using the keyboard for motion is more efficient once you build up the muscle memory for it. There are plugins like vim-easymotion[1] that make this faster, but I've found plain motion bindings to be efficient enough for me. In any case, my intention wasn't to dismiss your personal preference, so apologies if it came out like that. At the end of the day we all have a specific workflow we prefer for whatever reason, and that's fine. I just objected to the general statement that a trackpad is more efficient. [1]: https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
      - pjerem 5y ago
        I think it depends on what is your work. As a developer, eventually, the raw task of "writing code" is really not where I feel losing time. Tbh, most of my time developing software is reading code and thinking about what needs to be written and "doing nothing" waiting for build/test to complete. Fast switching between tools using touchpad gestures is more important to me than being able to type faster (but I acknowledge you can do both). As a sidenote, I absolutely love macOS fullscreen mode combined with 4 fingers swap. It's such a productivity marvel that I don't understand why Windows never copied it.
dmos62 5y ago
In my experience, a good work environment let's you go a really long way without even thinking of the mouse (or trackpad). So discussing which pointer device is most comfortable is sort of foreign to me. For context, I use shells and vim in tmux. If I don't need a web browser, I'll often not even start an X server (so no mouse at all).
- foldr 5y ago
  Obviously it's possible to just use the keyboard if that's how you want to work. The point is that using a good quality trackpad positioned below a keyboard doesn't actually require you to move your wrist much, if at all. With this set up, there is not really any cost associated with switching between the trackpad and the keyboard. Thus, there is really no benefit to using the keyboard for tasks which can also be accomplished efficiently using the trackpad (as you are not paying any significant penalty for switching between the two input methods). For example, I was able to move my mouse cursor to the 'update' button to submit this form faster than I would have been able to use the relevant keyboard shortcut.
  - dmos62 5y ago
    I'd say that pointing is inherently slow because it involves checking where the cursor is, where the target is, moving it in that direction, then stopping at the right time. With a typical keyboard-based browser interface clicking the update button would have been a 2 key combination. Two discreet steps without any timing or measurement nuances. I guess which is better for me doesn't have to be so for someone else. Mouse interfaces do have a certain simplicity to them. Check demo animation on Saka Key's readme: https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key
    - foldr 5y ago
      You say that you hardly ever use the mouse. If you’re out of practice then you’d probably be slow at it. On a good trackpad you don’t actually need much visual feedback because the response is very predictable. You can make a short movement and click more quickly than you can press a couple of keys. Saka Key looks to be both slower and more complex than navigating using a trackpad (especially once you take scrolling into account).
pmontra 5y ago
I would buy such a keyboard too. Or a touchscreen. I can raise my hand, touch the screen to place the cursor close to where I want and probably be faster than with a touchpad, surely much faster than with a mouse. Unfortunately I would have to clean my screen as often as my glasses.

by pjerem 5y ago

foldr 5y ago

Indeed. If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts can be more efficient in some specific cases of course (e.g. moving to the beginning of the next word, or something like that). But I see no point in memorizing the more obscure shortcuts when the trackpad works so efficiently and requires no thought or memorization.

imiric 5y ago
The difference is that with a pointer device you need to control the input very carefully and precisely, which wastes time and brain cycles. A misclick could result in either maximizing or closing a window. Consecutive clicks can be interpreted differently depending on the configured period. Dragging and dropping is awkward, etc. On any trackpad other than Apple's this becomes even more difficult. Gestures are nice but also require nuance and IME don't become part of muscle memory as quickly as keyboard use does. Keyboard-driven workflows have no such issues. A keyboard shortcut is an immediate command to the computer to perform an action, and if that's something you do often, it will save you time and effort right away. You'll memorize it soon and forget about it since it will become part of muscle memory. > If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. But moving "to a location on screen" is never a challenge worth using keyboard shortcuts for. If moving a cursor is your only UI option then a trackpad will be more efficient than doing the same with a keyboard of course. What you should do is use hotkeys to perform the action you would with a pointer so that you don't have to move it to begin with.
- foldr 5y ago
  I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I find my MacBook trackpad to be a fast and precise method of placing the cursor at an arbitrary location within a text buffer. Outside of certain special cases it is faster for this purpose than fiddling around with keyboard shortcuts. There should not be any significant mental overhead associated with using a pointer device if you are sufficiently practiced at it. If trackpads don’t work well for you then don’t use them. I believe you, and have no interest in proving that your favored working methods are suboptimal. However, having tried the ‘keyboard first’ approach, I know that it is less efficient for me. I do tire of the ritual haranguing of anyone who notes that they find the use of pointer devices an aid to their working efficiency.
  - imiric 5y ago
    > I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that "it's logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts". I thought you were talking about moving the cursor to a general area of the screen, not within the context of a text buffer, but there I still think using the keyboard for motion is more efficient once you build up the muscle memory for it. There are plugins like vim-easymotion[1] that make this faster, but I've found plain motion bindings to be efficient enough for me. In any case, my intention wasn't to dismiss your personal preference, so apologies if it came out like that. At the end of the day we all have a specific workflow we prefer for whatever reason, and that's fine. I just objected to the general statement that a trackpad is more efficient. [1]: https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
    - pjerem 5y ago
      I think it depends on what is your work. As a developer, eventually, the raw task of "writing code" is really not where I feel losing time. Tbh, most of my time developing software is reading code and thinking about what needs to be written and "doing nothing" waiting for build/test to complete. Fast switching between tools using touchpad gestures is more important to me than being able to type faster (but I acknowledge you can do both). As a sidenote, I absolutely love macOS fullscreen mode combined with 4 fingers swap. It's such a productivity marvel that I don't understand why Windows never copied it.

dmos62 5y ago

In my experience, a good work environment let's you go a really long way without even thinking of the mouse (or trackpad). So discussing which pointer device is most comfortable is sort of foreign to me. For context, I use shells and vim in tmux. If I don't need a web browser, I'll often not even start an X server (so no mouse at all).

foldr 5y ago
Obviously it's possible to just use the keyboard if that's how you want to work. The point is that using a good quality trackpad positioned below a keyboard doesn't actually require you to move your wrist much, if at all. With this set up, there is not really any cost associated with switching between the trackpad and the keyboard. Thus, there is really no benefit to using the keyboard for tasks which can also be accomplished efficiently using the trackpad (as you are not paying any significant penalty for switching between the two input methods). For example, I was able to move my mouse cursor to the 'update' button to submit this form faster than I would have been able to use the relevant keyboard shortcut.
- dmos62 5y ago
  I'd say that pointing is inherently slow because it involves checking where the cursor is, where the target is, moving it in that direction, then stopping at the right time. With a typical keyboard-based browser interface clicking the update button would have been a 2 key combination. Two discreet steps without any timing or measurement nuances. I guess which is better for me doesn't have to be so for someone else. Mouse interfaces do have a certain simplicity to them. Check demo animation on Saka Key's readme: https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key
  - foldr 5y ago
    You say that you hardly ever use the mouse. If you’re out of practice then you’d probably be slow at it. On a good trackpad you don’t actually need much visual feedback because the response is very predictable. You can make a short movement and click more quickly than you can press a couple of keys. Saka Key looks to be both slower and more complex than navigating using a trackpad (especially once you take scrolling into account).

pmontra 5y ago

I would buy such a keyboard too. Or a touchscreen. I can raise my hand, touch the screen to place the cursor close to where I want and probably be faster than with a touchpad, surely much faster than with a mouse. Unfortunately I would have to clean my screen as often as my glasses.