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> pro government control That’s a surprising (to me) way to characterize those who were extremely cautious around COVID. Another honest question if you don’t

> pro government control That’s a surprising (to me) way to characterize those who were extremely cautious around COVID. Another honest question if you don’t mind: I assume you stop at red lights (a system designed, installed and run by the government). Do you self-identify as someone who stops at red lights because you’re “pro government control”? I mean stopping no doubt interferes with your rights to travel, slows down your forward progress and lastly seems to be sold as “yes it’s an inconvenience but it protects both you and your community”. It’s worth observing that gang members, murderers and the like most likely stop at red lights. Do they do it because they’re “pro-government control?” I posit not. It’s more likely they accept the inconvenience and they accept the temporary delay in their rights to travel because they’ve done the calculus of risk vs reward. Risk to both themselves and others. We all choose to stop because it’s the safest thing for everyone.

reedjosh 5y ago
> I assume you stop at red lights This paints me in a somewhat negative light--in the spirit of honesty--prior to flashing left turn signals, I often didn't. Well, I probably stopped and looked both ways, but I didn't necessarily obey. I think this is completely tangential to your point though. I do try to be a good citizen to my neighbors and friends. I pick up garbage and keep my house clean. I live on a private road (not fancy, just not publicly maintained.), and I help maintain that. I try to walk faster when a car is waiting for me to cross. I do things I believe help my community, but I also break rules if I disagree with them. I would argue with my parents if I believed their reasoning was lacking, and generally if I obeyed a command of theirs even though I disagreed it was from fear of retribution. To steel man your argument, I think what you're saying is that being pro COVID vaccine isn't necessarily being pro-government control, and people are taking the vaccine purely to help others in society. I agree, there are definitely people that fall in this category. I still believe that the overwhelming majority of people that have taken the vaccine also are happy that views like mine are censored, think the government is doing a great job promoting this vaccine and do support lockdowns. It's hard for me to separate the two opinions because such a seemingly overwhelming majority of people with one of these opinions have all of them. I think taking the vaccine if you believe it is healthy and helps others is a good thing for you to do. That said I think blocking me from speaking against vaccine requirements, and or being able to discuss how the vaccine might be unhealthy https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/spike-proteins-covid-19-and-vaccines/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/spike-proteins-covid-19-and... Is atrocious and has no place in a free society. Yet, this is happening. Not only that, but I'm worried I'll be forced to be vaccinated to live a normal life, even though I have COVID antibodies. From my vantage, it's difficult to remain optimistic because of what I perceive as a governmental overreach being supported by the majority of people. I legitimately feel threatened, and that makes it hard for me to be un-biased. Edit: Just realized my link may not make sense without a bit of context. Essentially it's saying a lot of the damage done by COVID is caused by the spike protein itself. The mRNA vaccines cause your body to produce the spike protein. I'm not saying _you_ should be convinced because of this link, I'm just giving an example of why I'm skeptical.
- baumy 5y ago
  Just so you know where I'm coming from - I've been vehemently anti lockdown since late April 2020 and still am, I'm generally appalled at the level of mindless obedience to "experts" and "the science" that has been displayed by many people over the past year, and at the enthusiastic embrace of censorship of wrongthink that those same people exhibited. I was also skeptical of taking the emergency vaccines until I did many hours of my own reading, since I'm fairly young and very fit and consider covid to be a fairly negligible concern for my own personal health. Having said all that, did you fully read your own link? It does mention that the spike protein can cause damage to lung tissue and other things as well. But there's also these two paragraphs which seem extremely relevant, in that they directly contradict the implicit claim you're making that the spike proteins produced in reaction to the mRNA vaccine are dangerous just like the ones on the virus itself: > The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines produce the full-length spike protein. Pfizer studied several formulations initially, but found that the full length protein vaccine had fewer side effects and was better tolerated than other vaccine candidates, so that is the one they went with. It is also likely that the full protein contains more epitopes (sites for immune activity) and therefore produces more thorough and longer lasting immunity. The proteins, however, are in a fixed state, they are unable to change their confirmation, which is necessary to bind to cells. So they function differently than spike proteins on infecting virus. > After the Pfizer vaccine full spike proteins are expressed on the vaccinated cells for presentation to the immune system. But the vaccine-induced proteins do not appear to cause any harmful effects. This may be because the vaccine is administered in the muscle, and so muscle cells are the ones taking up the mRNA and making spike proteins. There is a vigorous immune response which neutralizes the spike proteins before they can cause any harm. This is very different from a virus replicating throughout the body. I firmly believe getting vaccinated is a personal choice so I'm not trying to pressure you. But your concerns seem to be directly called out as unsubstantiated and not backed by evidence according to your own source.
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    Yes, I did read those. My point is basically that there's still emerging science, and seeing as I don't trust the government, medical industry (which stands to profit greatly), the media (which have pushed the vaccine like crazy), and pretty much any authority, how can I believe evidence provided by the companies that stand to profit billions? > This may be because the vaccine is administered in the muscle, and so muscle cells are the ones taking up the mRNA and making spike proteins. Dr. Bridle discusses how the spike proteins can leave the shoulder muscle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sis1Sddzbqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sis1Sddzbqk Which was found after filing a freedom of information request with the Japanese government. Study translated into english. https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf Either way, there's still no possibility for long term evidence of safety, and I have COVID antibodies from the disease itself, so why would I take the vaccine?

reedjosh 5y ago

> I assume you stop at red lights This paints me in a somewhat negative light--in the spirit of honesty--prior to flashing left turn signals, I often didn't. Well, I probably stopped and looked both ways, but I didn't necessarily obey. I think this is completely tangential to your point though. I do try to be a good citizen to my neighbors and friends. I pick up garbage and keep my house clean. I live on a private road (not fancy, just not publicly maintained.), and I help maintain that. I try to walk faster when a car is waiting for me to cross. I do things I believe help my community, but I also break rules if I disagree with them. I would argue with my parents if I believed their reasoning was lacking, and generally if I obeyed a command of theirs even though I disagreed it was from fear of retribution. To steel man your argument, I think what you're saying is that being pro COVID vaccine isn't necessarily being pro-government control, and people are taking the vaccine purely to help others in society. I agree, there are definitely people that fall in this category. I still believe that the overwhelming majority of people that have taken the vaccine also are happy that views like mine are censored, think the government is doing a great job promoting this vaccine and do support lockdowns. It's hard for me to separate the two opinions because such a seemingly overwhelming majority of people with one of these opinions have all of them. I think taking the vaccine if you believe it is healthy and helps others is a good thing for you to do. That said I think blocking me from speaking against vaccine requirements, and or being able to discuss how the vaccine might be unhealthy https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/spike-proteins-covid-19-and-vaccines/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/spike-proteins-covid-19-and... Is atrocious and has no place in a free society. Yet, this is happening. Not only that, but I'm worried I'll be forced to be vaccinated to live a normal life, even though I have COVID antibodies. From my vantage, it's difficult to remain optimistic because of what I perceive as a governmental overreach being supported by the majority of people. I legitimately feel threatened, and that makes it hard for me to be un-biased. Edit: Just realized my link may not make sense without a bit of context. Essentially it's saying a lot of the damage done by COVID is caused by the spike protein itself. The mRNA vaccines cause your body to produce the spike protein. I'm not saying _you_ should be convinced because of this link, I'm just giving an example of why I'm skeptical.

baumy 5y ago
Just so you know where I'm coming from - I've been vehemently anti lockdown since late April 2020 and still am, I'm generally appalled at the level of mindless obedience to "experts" and "the science" that has been displayed by many people over the past year, and at the enthusiastic embrace of censorship of wrongthink that those same people exhibited. I was also skeptical of taking the emergency vaccines until I did many hours of my own reading, since I'm fairly young and very fit and consider covid to be a fairly negligible concern for my own personal health. Having said all that, did you fully read your own link? It does mention that the spike protein can cause damage to lung tissue and other things as well. But there's also these two paragraphs which seem extremely relevant, in that they directly contradict the implicit claim you're making that the spike proteins produced in reaction to the mRNA vaccine are dangerous just like the ones on the virus itself: > The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines produce the full-length spike protein. Pfizer studied several formulations initially, but found that the full length protein vaccine had fewer side effects and was better tolerated than other vaccine candidates, so that is the one they went with. It is also likely that the full protein contains more epitopes (sites for immune activity) and therefore produces more thorough and longer lasting immunity. The proteins, however, are in a fixed state, they are unable to change their confirmation, which is necessary to bind to cells. So they function differently than spike proteins on infecting virus. > After the Pfizer vaccine full spike proteins are expressed on the vaccinated cells for presentation to the immune system. But the vaccine-induced proteins do not appear to cause any harmful effects. This may be because the vaccine is administered in the muscle, and so muscle cells are the ones taking up the mRNA and making spike proteins. There is a vigorous immune response which neutralizes the spike proteins before they can cause any harm. This is very different from a virus replicating throughout the body. I firmly believe getting vaccinated is a personal choice so I'm not trying to pressure you. But your concerns seem to be directly called out as unsubstantiated and not backed by evidence according to your own source.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  Yes, I did read those. My point is basically that there's still emerging science, and seeing as I don't trust the government, medical industry (which stands to profit greatly), the media (which have pushed the vaccine like crazy), and pretty much any authority, how can I believe evidence provided by the companies that stand to profit billions? > This may be because the vaccine is administered in the muscle, and so muscle cells are the ones taking up the mRNA and making spike proteins. Dr. Bridle discusses how the spike proteins can leave the shoulder muscle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sis1Sddzbqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sis1Sddzbqk Which was found after filing a freedom of information request with the Japanese government. Study translated into english. https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf Either way, there's still no possibility for long term evidence of safety, and I have COVID antibodies from the disease itself, so why would I take the vaccine?