6 ms·

Because we don't want to move the hand around. With keyboard-only solutions your wrist stays pretty much put. That's mechanically more fluid and faster.

by dmos62 5y ago

SkyMarshal 5y ago
It's all about avoiding context-switching from keyboard to mouse and back.
- mro_name 5y ago
  and also in your brainz (no context switching)
foldr 5y ago
When there’s a trackpad below the keyboard you only have to move your hand slightly to use it.
- pjerem 5y ago
  I don't get why you are being downvoted. A good trackpad under a keyboard (like on the Macbooks) is probably the (or at least, my) best input method. I would pay high price for a desktop keyboard with a qualitative touchpad right under the keyboard.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Indeed. If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts can be more efficient in some specific cases of course (e.g. moving to the beginning of the next word, or something like that). But I see no point in memorizing the more obscure shortcuts when the trackpad works so efficiently and requires no thought or memorization.
    - imiric 5y ago
      The difference is that with a pointer device you need to control the input very carefully and precisely, which wastes time and brain cycles. A misclick could result in either maximizing or closing a window. Consecutive clicks can be interpreted differently depending on the configured period. Dragging and dropping is awkward, etc. On any trackpad other than Apple's this becomes even more difficult. Gestures are nice but also require nuance and IME don't become part of muscle memory as quickly as keyboard use does. Keyboard-driven workflows have no such issues. A keyboard shortcut is an immediate command to the computer to perform an action, and if that's something you do often, it will save you time and effort right away. You'll memorize it soon and forget about it since it will become part of muscle memory. > If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. But moving "to a location on screen" is never a challenge worth using keyboard shortcuts for. If moving a cursor is your only UI option then a trackpad will be more efficient than doing the same with a keyboard of course. What you should do is use hotkeys to perform the action you would with a pointer so that you don't have to move it to begin with.
      - foldr 5y ago
        I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I find my MacBook trackpad to be a fast and precise method of placing the cursor at an arbitrary location within a text buffer. Outside of certain special cases it is faster for this purpose than fiddling around with keyboard shortcuts. There should not be any significant mental overhead associated with using a pointer device if you are sufficiently practiced at it. If trackpads don’t work well for you then don’t use them. I believe you, and have no interest in proving that your favored working methods are suboptimal. However, having tried the ‘keyboard first’ approach, I know that it is less efficient for me. I do tire of the ritual haranguing of anyone who notes that they find the use of pointer devices an aid to their working efficiency.
        imiric 5y ago
        > I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that "it's logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts". I thought you were talking about moving the cursor to a general area of the screen, not within the context of a text buffer, but there I still think using the keyboard for motion is more efficient once you build up the muscle memory for it. There are plugins like vim-easymotion[1] that make this faster, but I've found plain motion bindings to be efficient enough for me. In any case, my intention wasn't to dismiss your personal preference, so apologies if it came out like that. At the end of the day we all have a specific workflow we prefer for whatever reason, and that's fine. I just objected to the general statement that a trackpad is more efficient. [1]: https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
  - dmos62 5y ago
    In my experience, a good work environment let's you go a really long way without even thinking of the mouse (or trackpad). So discussing which pointer device is most comfortable is sort of foreign to me. For context, I use shells and vim in tmux. If I don't need a web browser, I'll often not even start an X server (so no mouse at all).
    - foldr 5y ago
      Obviously it's possible to just use the keyboard if that's how you want to work. The point is that using a good quality trackpad positioned below a keyboard doesn't actually require you to move your wrist much, if at all. With this set up, there is not really any cost associated with switching between the trackpad and the keyboard. Thus, there is really no benefit to using the keyboard for tasks which can also be accomplished efficiently using the trackpad (as you are not paying any significant penalty for switching between the two input methods). For example, I was able to move my mouse cursor to the 'update' button to submit this form faster than I would have been able to use the relevant keyboard shortcut.
      - dmos62 5y ago
        I'd say that pointing is inherently slow because it involves checking where the cursor is, where the target is, moving it in that direction, then stopping at the right time. With a typical keyboard-based browser interface clicking the update button would have been a 2 key combination. Two discreet steps without any timing or measurement nuances. I guess which is better for me doesn't have to be so for someone else. Mouse interfaces do have a certain simplicity to them. Check demo animation on Saka Key's readme: https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key
        foldr 5y ago
        You say that you hardly ever use the mouse. If you’re out of practice then you’d probably be slow at it. On a good trackpad you don’t actually need much visual feedback because the response is very predictable. You can make a short movement and click more quickly than you can press a couple of keys. Saka Key looks to be both slower and more complex than navigating using a trackpad (especially once you take scrolling into account).
  - pmontra 5y ago
    I would buy such a keyboard too. Or a touchscreen. I can raise my hand, touch the screen to place the cursor close to where I want and probably be faster than with a touchpad, surely much faster than with a mouse. Unfortunately I would have to clean my screen as often as my glasses.
tokamak-teapot 5y ago
Have you tried a MacBook with its trackpad right in front of the keyboard? I like keyboard-only too, but some jobs are faster when you can point at the screen
- smoldesu 5y ago
  "pointing at the screen" can be done a lot better, a number of different ways. My personal favorite is the Trackpoint, IBM's nifty little nipple that lets you use a joystick from the home row. You can actually type while using your mouse, and it's a a very jarring experience. Barring that, a touchscreen is also a great interface for quickly interacting with specific UI elements. I like Apple's trackpads, but the rest of their input peripherals are pretty terrible for ergonomics.
  - imiric 5y ago
    I've been a huge fan of the Trackpoint for many years, but unfortunately it's always been plagued by annoying drift issues, where the cursor keeps moving in one direction and you have to fight with it to make it stop. This has been an issue on older IBM ThinkPads as well as modern Lenovo models. It's a disgrace the technology hasn't improved much (at all?) in the last 20 years that this is still a recurring problem.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      There was also just shy of a dozen different Trackpoint designs, I don't doubt that one or two were seriously faulty, and I certainly have my preferences (the lower profile ones definitely don't track as well). In any case, the positioning and design of it is pretty ideal for people looking to reduce context switching at any cost.
    - dnr 5y ago
      The trick is: as soon as you notice it drifting, take your finger off it and let it come to a stop. If you keep pushing opposite the drift it'll never stop. Also, if you haven't in a while, replace your cap. I replace mine every year or so and it makes it perform much better. You don't have to push as hard, which also reduces the drift problem.

Because we don't want to move the hand around. With keyboard-only solutions your wrist stays pretty much put. That's mechanically more fluid and faster.

by dmos62 5y ago

Because we don't want to move the hand around. With keyboard-only solutions your wrist stays pretty much put. That's mechanically more fluid and faster.

SkyMarshal 5y ago

It's all about avoiding context-switching from keyboard to mouse and back.

mro_name 5y ago
and also in your brainz (no context switching)

foldr 5y ago

When there’s a trackpad below the keyboard you only have to move your hand slightly to use it.

pjerem 5y ago
I don't get why you are being downvoted. A good trackpad under a keyboard (like on the Macbooks) is probably the (or at least, my) best input method. I would pay high price for a desktop keyboard with a qualitative touchpad right under the keyboard.
- foldr 5y ago
  Indeed. If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts can be more efficient in some specific cases of course (e.g. moving to the beginning of the next word, or something like that). But I see no point in memorizing the more obscure shortcuts when the trackpad works so efficiently and requires no thought or memorization.
  - imiric 5y ago
    The difference is that with a pointer device you need to control the input very carefully and precisely, which wastes time and brain cycles. A misclick could result in either maximizing or closing a window. Consecutive clicks can be interpreted differently depending on the configured period. Dragging and dropping is awkward, etc. On any trackpad other than Apple's this becomes even more difficult. Gestures are nice but also require nuance and IME don't become part of muscle memory as quickly as keyboard use does. Keyboard-driven workflows have no such issues. A keyboard shortcut is an immediate command to the computer to perform an action, and if that's something you do often, it will save you time and effort right away. You'll memorize it soon and forget about it since it will become part of muscle memory. > If the challenge is to move to an arbitrary location visible on screen, then it’s logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts. But moving "to a location on screen" is never a challenge worth using keyboard shortcuts for. If moving a cursor is your only UI option then a trackpad will be more efficient than doing the same with a keyboard of course. What you should do is use hotkeys to perform the action you would with a pointer so that you don't have to move it to begin with.
    - foldr 5y ago
      I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I find my MacBook trackpad to be a fast and precise method of placing the cursor at an arbitrary location within a text buffer. Outside of certain special cases it is faster for this purpose than fiddling around with keyboard shortcuts. There should not be any significant mental overhead associated with using a pointer device if you are sufficiently practiced at it. If trackpads don’t work well for you then don’t use them. I believe you, and have no interest in proving that your favored working methods are suboptimal. However, having tried the ‘keyboard first’ approach, I know that it is less efficient for me. I do tire of the ritual haranguing of anyone who notes that they find the use of pointer devices an aid to their working efficiency.
      - imiric 5y ago
        > I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I'm disagreeing with your assertion that "it's logically almost certain that a good trackpad is more efficient than any combination of keyboard shortcuts". I thought you were talking about moving the cursor to a general area of the screen, not within the context of a text buffer, but there I still think using the keyboard for motion is more efficient once you build up the muscle memory for it. There are plugins like vim-easymotion[1] that make this faster, but I've found plain motion bindings to be efficient enough for me. In any case, my intention wasn't to dismiss your personal preference, so apologies if it came out like that. At the end of the day we all have a specific workflow we prefer for whatever reason, and that's fine. I just objected to the general statement that a trackpad is more efficient. [1]: https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion https://github.com/easymotion/vim-easymotion
- dmos62 5y ago
  In my experience, a good work environment let's you go a really long way without even thinking of the mouse (or trackpad). So discussing which pointer device is most comfortable is sort of foreign to me. For context, I use shells and vim in tmux. If I don't need a web browser, I'll often not even start an X server (so no mouse at all).
  - foldr 5y ago
    Obviously it's possible to just use the keyboard if that's how you want to work. The point is that using a good quality trackpad positioned below a keyboard doesn't actually require you to move your wrist much, if at all. With this set up, there is not really any cost associated with switching between the trackpad and the keyboard. Thus, there is really no benefit to using the keyboard for tasks which can also be accomplished efficiently using the trackpad (as you are not paying any significant penalty for switching between the two input methods). For example, I was able to move my mouse cursor to the 'update' button to submit this form faster than I would have been able to use the relevant keyboard shortcut.
    - dmos62 5y ago
      I'd say that pointing is inherently slow because it involves checking where the cursor is, where the target is, moving it in that direction, then stopping at the right time. With a typical keyboard-based browser interface clicking the update button would have been a 2 key combination. Two discreet steps without any timing or measurement nuances. I guess which is better for me doesn't have to be so for someone else. Mouse interfaces do have a certain simplicity to them. Check demo animation on Saka Key's readme: https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key https://github.com/lusakasa/saka-key
      - foldr 5y ago
        You say that you hardly ever use the mouse. If you’re out of practice then you’d probably be slow at it. On a good trackpad you don’t actually need much visual feedback because the response is very predictable. You can make a short movement and click more quickly than you can press a couple of keys. Saka Key looks to be both slower and more complex than navigating using a trackpad (especially once you take scrolling into account).
- pmontra 5y ago
  I would buy such a keyboard too. Or a touchscreen. I can raise my hand, touch the screen to place the cursor close to where I want and probably be faster than with a touchpad, surely much faster than with a mouse. Unfortunately I would have to clean my screen as often as my glasses.

tokamak-teapot 5y ago

Have you tried a MacBook with its trackpad right in front of the keyboard? I like keyboard-only too, but some jobs are faster when you can point at the screen

smoldesu 5y ago
"pointing at the screen" can be done a lot better, a number of different ways. My personal favorite is the Trackpoint, IBM's nifty little nipple that lets you use a joystick from the home row. You can actually type while using your mouse, and it's a a very jarring experience. Barring that, a touchscreen is also a great interface for quickly interacting with specific UI elements. I like Apple's trackpads, but the rest of their input peripherals are pretty terrible for ergonomics.
- imiric 5y ago
  I've been a huge fan of the Trackpoint for many years, but unfortunately it's always been plagued by annoying drift issues, where the cursor keeps moving in one direction and you have to fight with it to make it stop. This has been an issue on older IBM ThinkPads as well as modern Lenovo models. It's a disgrace the technology hasn't improved much (at all?) in the last 20 years that this is still a recurring problem.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    There was also just shy of a dozen different Trackpoint designs, I don't doubt that one or two were seriously faulty, and I certainly have my preferences (the lower profile ones definitely don't track as well). In any case, the positioning and design of it is pretty ideal for people looking to reduce context switching at any cost.
  - dnr 5y ago
    The trick is: as soon as you notice it drifting, take your finger off it and let it come to a stop. If you keep pushing opposite the drift it'll never stop. Also, if you haven't in a while, replace your cap. I replace mine every year or so and it makes it perform much better. You don't have to push as hard, which also reduces the drift problem.