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The Security Now podcast has a great episode [1] about why this isn't as scary as the headlines make it out to be. I'm actually quite disappointed at the sheer

The Security Now podcast has a great episode [1] about why this isn't as scary as the headlines make it out to be. I'm actually quite disappointed at the sheer amount of fearmongering surrounding this technology here on HN of all places. For some reason I expected HN to be better than the general tech press when it came to these things. [1] https://twit.tv/shows/security-now/episodes/796 https://twit.tv/shows/security-now/episodes/796

teachingassist 5y ago
I don't particularly find it "scary", but it is monopolistic practice. Amazon are using their devices to get a lead on the competition, and in a way which consumers are unlikely to think is fair. If a company approaches me wanting to put infrastructure in my house (that only benefits them and may incur charges to me), they should normally expect to pay rent.
- aorth 5y ago
  I think it's definitely scary. How is this even legal? In what world is it OK for Amazon to co-opt my internet connection and share it with random passers-by? Even if it's only 80kbps and 500MB/month (as another commenter pointed out), this will be just the beginning if they get their way. It will set a precedent for them and others. And they know that most people won't notice or care enough to turn it off! This is just disgusting arrogance from Amazon.
  - teachingassist 5y ago
    There once was a time when I was happy to share my wi-fi with my neighbours. Everyone pays for their own household now, only because of general corporate scaremongering and specific lobbying to claim that the owner is liable for misuse. I remain surprised there isn't a bigger movement and open source infrastructure for sharing connections locally. If I was able to share a few connections with my apartment-neighbours, that would be cheaper and more reliable than my current setup.
    - VRay 5y ago
      That's a good point Personally, I'd be happy to share my connection with another human being This isn't really the same thing though, it's Amazon treating all its customers like a harvestable resource, and reselling that resource as a value-add for their other products
duxup 5y ago
Care to summarize? (I'll be honest I'm not going to listen) Most of the articles I've seen that argue that it 'isn't scary' are along the lines of. - It's not a lot of bandwidth. - It seems pretty secure. For me the concern is that if either of those become not the case, intentionally or not... that's a very bad thing.
ww520 5y ago
It's not just the security. It's the blatant "utilization" of the consumers' devices, bandwidth, and electricity. What's next? How about, hey, we'll mine bitcoin while your Echo is idle.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  It's bad enough when internet providers do it with the rented modem/router/AP/VOIP combo devices, and then it's only the power they're stealing.
kstrauser 5y ago
Really? I think it's worse than most headlines make it out to be. I wrote up some thoughts at https://honeypot.net/post/tripping-on-cracked-sidewalk/ https://honeypot.net/post/tripping-on-cracked-sidewalk/ , but the TLDR is you're allowing unknown parties to bridge their network with yours. That's one single mistake in the protocol or implementation away from all sorts of horrid failure modes.
thepasswordis 5y ago
It's not "scary". It's my fucking network hardware, the power comes from my house, the data comes from my house. I pay for all of this stuff. Amazon wants to resell it without asking me. NO.
- slownews45 5y ago
  It's very unlikely that you have title to amazon's software. You may have a license to use their device and the related software subject to their terms, but that is VERY different than classical ownership. All the megacorps have gone this direction. Amazon is going to give you a constantly improving Alexa system and ecosystem and in return you are going to let them use sidewalk in most cases.
  - howolduis 5y ago
    this is the equivalent of saying: "in return of living in a well-maintained nice neighborhood, you should not password-lock your wifi"
    - slownews45 5y ago
      Traffic over sidewalk will egress to internet from Amazon AS numbers. You need to be careful about open wifi which despite the claims is different - traffic will egress as you - so if someone jumps on and does some stupid stuff, you can create a fair bit of pain for yourself. Most folks experience free improvements to echo after purchase. That is part of the value people see in these devices. The network effects get stronger with time. All of the use of these systems requires agreements to TOS that mean you really don't own / control the device, amazon does. Worst cast, when the megacorps close your accounts, you can actually lose access to lots of stuff that it feels like you "own". All your photos, all your email, maybe media content, books etc.

teachingassist 5y ago

I don't particularly find it "scary", but it is monopolistic practice. Amazon are using their devices to get a lead on the competition, and in a way which consumers are unlikely to think is fair. If a company approaches me wanting to put infrastructure in my house (that only benefits them and may incur charges to me), they should normally expect to pay rent.

aorth 5y ago
I think it's definitely scary. How is this even legal? In what world is it OK for Amazon to co-opt my internet connection and share it with random passers-by? Even if it's only 80kbps and 500MB/month (as another commenter pointed out), this will be just the beginning if they get their way. It will set a precedent for them and others. And they know that most people won't notice or care enough to turn it off! This is just disgusting arrogance from Amazon.
- teachingassist 5y ago
  There once was a time when I was happy to share my wi-fi with my neighbours. Everyone pays for their own household now, only because of general corporate scaremongering and specific lobbying to claim that the owner is liable for misuse. I remain surprised there isn't a bigger movement and open source infrastructure for sharing connections locally. If I was able to share a few connections with my apartment-neighbours, that would be cheaper and more reliable than my current setup.
  - VRay 5y ago
    That's a good point Personally, I'd be happy to share my connection with another human being This isn't really the same thing though, it's Amazon treating all its customers like a harvestable resource, and reselling that resource as a value-add for their other products

duxup 5y ago

Care to summarize? (I'll be honest I'm not going to listen) Most of the articles I've seen that argue that it 'isn't scary' are along the lines of. - It's not a lot of bandwidth. - It seems pretty secure. For me the concern is that if either of those become not the case, intentionally or not... that's a very bad thing.

ww520 5y ago

It's not just the security. It's the blatant "utilization" of the consumers' devices, bandwidth, and electricity. What's next? How about, hey, we'll mine bitcoin while your Echo is idle.

dec0dedab0de 5y ago
It's bad enough when internet providers do it with the rented modem/router/AP/VOIP combo devices, and then it's only the power they're stealing.

kstrauser 5y ago

Really? I think it's worse than most headlines make it out to be. I wrote up some thoughts at https://honeypot.net/post/tripping-on-cracked-sidewalk/ https://honeypot.net/post/tripping-on-cracked-sidewalk/ , but the TLDR is you're allowing unknown parties to bridge their network with yours. That's one single mistake in the protocol or implementation away from all sorts of horrid failure modes.

thepasswordis 5y ago

It's not "scary". It's my fucking network hardware, the power comes from my house, the data comes from my house. I pay for all of this stuff. Amazon wants to resell it without asking me. NO.

slownews45 5y ago
It's very unlikely that you have title to amazon's software. You may have a license to use their device and the related software subject to their terms, but that is VERY different than classical ownership. All the megacorps have gone this direction. Amazon is going to give you a constantly improving Alexa system and ecosystem and in return you are going to let them use sidewalk in most cases.
- howolduis 5y ago
  this is the equivalent of saying: "in return of living in a well-maintained nice neighborhood, you should not password-lock your wifi"
  - slownews45 5y ago
    Traffic over sidewalk will egress to internet from Amazon AS numbers. You need to be careful about open wifi which despite the claims is different - traffic will egress as you - so if someone jumps on and does some stupid stuff, you can create a fair bit of pain for yourself. Most folks experience free improvements to echo after purchase. That is part of the value people see in these devices. The network effects get stronger with time. All of the use of these systems requires agreements to TOS that mean you really don't own / control the device, amazon does. Worst cast, when the megacorps close your accounts, you can actually lose access to lots of stuff that it feels like you "own". All your photos, all your email, maybe media content, books etc.