5 ms·

Why would we europeans want to work with the US? It would actually be great if americans kept american interests in America, for once.

by rscho 5y ago

vinay427 5y ago
Your point of course stands, but the "for once" from a European perspective makes this sound more like a now-satiated lion complaining that the dog kills for food. (EDIT: Changed wording here) Regardless, I hope that the US is able to learn from the mistakes of western European powers.
- rscho 5y ago
  > learn from the mistakes of western European powers. By "mistakes" you mean like invading poor countries to steal their natural resources? ;-)
  - vinay427 5y ago
    Well, the US has already set that precedent. I was referring to the even more egregious century or two of direct colonialism involving cultural/moral imposition and the rewriting and dismantling of indigenous history (and economies) that the invasions typically resulted in, in the case of these western European powers, followed by another several decades of denying responsibility for the consequences of these events by essentially gaslighting.
    - rscho 5y ago
      And the US would not do that? Let's ask America's native population and see what they have to say about that. I find difficult to believe that you're arguing in good faith.
      - vinay427 5y ago
        I'm not sure how this is a response to what I said, quite frankly. It seems like you see an argument that I wasn't making, so I'm a little confused. (EDIT: To clarify, I don't disagree with what you said about the plight of indigenous populations in this comment.) I simply said that I hope the US (or any other country, for that matter) learns from the mistakes of western European powers, because it hasn't reached that level yet and the world (including perhaps the US in the long term) would be better off if it didn't. It seems rather disingenuous to equate the comprehensive political, economic, and emotional damage these colonial powers did and sometimes continue to do to "poor countries" to what the US has done, so far, even though the paths have stark similarities and the US could readily end up at a similar place if it continues certain practices.
unclesams-uncle 5y ago
Because unfortunately, the combination of a US absence from the global stage under the previous administration and the pandemic showed how unable Europe is to run its business. I say this as a US expat who has lived in various parts Europe long enough to have an EU citizenship. I wish it wasn't the case, but it's the sad reality.
- Bayart 5y ago
  >showed how unable Europe is to run its business Who do you think we are ? Some 19th c. African colony ? Qing China ? For the most part we don't want you here, and we don't need you here.
  - unclesams-uncle 5y ago
    a) I have EU nationality so I'm here to stay. b) Like it or not, the US military still guarantees European security. An EU-wide military force could change that dynamic. c) Have you not watched Europe as a whole completely shoot themselves in the foot with an artillery rifle during this pandemic? The continent completely closed in on itself, falling back to national borders while the EU flubbed response after response. It took months to get a bloc-wide recovery bill which still hasn't been deployed (meanwhile the US have done three rounds, including one within weeks of the pandemic starting). The vaccine roll-out has been a debacle, starting with Brussels' decision to make group-wide purchases then waste months haggling over a few billion EUR. We're in June and there still isn't a common policy on inter-EU travel. This vaccine passport might roll out in a month, but even then there's no guarantee it will work. In many ways, Europe's inability to effectively govern got the worst of both worlds of the pandemic. We had strict lockdowns like in parts of APAC but w/o the contact tracing (didn't want to sacrifice GDPR for that), while at the same time, it didn't invest seriously in vaccines. The result? All of the deaths of the United States, with the economic carnage of strict lockdowns, while still lagging other parts of the developed world. There's a large disconnect here with many people trying to still hold onto an outdated and nationalistic way of thinking. That mentality conflicts with the modern reality of a global world where capital and innovation flows freely and competitively with little regard towards nationalist quirks. The only response to American tech superiority is to "tax and regulate it," yet policymakers here are still stunned as to why the continents most talented people and startups flock to the United States. I really hope this continent gets it together because there is too much potential and pressing issues to continue on the current trajectory.

Why would we europeans want to work with the US? It would actually be great if americans kept american interests in America, for once.

by rscho 5y ago

Why would we europeans want to work with the US? It would actually be great if americans kept american interests in America, for once.

vinay427 5y ago

Your point of course stands, but the "for once" from a European perspective makes this sound more like a now-satiated lion complaining that the dog kills for food. (EDIT: Changed wording here) Regardless, I hope that the US is able to learn from the mistakes of western European powers.

rscho 5y ago
> learn from the mistakes of western European powers. By "mistakes" you mean like invading poor countries to steal their natural resources? ;-)
- vinay427 5y ago
  Well, the US has already set that precedent. I was referring to the even more egregious century or two of direct colonialism involving cultural/moral imposition and the rewriting and dismantling of indigenous history (and economies) that the invasions typically resulted in, in the case of these western European powers, followed by another several decades of denying responsibility for the consequences of these events by essentially gaslighting.
  - rscho 5y ago
    And the US would not do that? Let's ask America's native population and see what they have to say about that. I find difficult to believe that you're arguing in good faith.
    - vinay427 5y ago
      I'm not sure how this is a response to what I said, quite frankly. It seems like you see an argument that I wasn't making, so I'm a little confused. (EDIT: To clarify, I don't disagree with what you said about the plight of indigenous populations in this comment.) I simply said that I hope the US (or any other country, for that matter) learns from the mistakes of western European powers, because it hasn't reached that level yet and the world (including perhaps the US in the long term) would be better off if it didn't. It seems rather disingenuous to equate the comprehensive political, economic, and emotional damage these colonial powers did and sometimes continue to do to "poor countries" to what the US has done, so far, even though the paths have stark similarities and the US could readily end up at a similar place if it continues certain practices.

unclesams-uncle 5y ago

Because unfortunately, the combination of a US absence from the global stage under the previous administration and the pandemic showed how unable Europe is to run its business. I say this as a US expat who has lived in various parts Europe long enough to have an EU citizenship. I wish it wasn't the case, but it's the sad reality.

Bayart 5y ago
>showed how unable Europe is to run its business Who do you think we are ? Some 19th c. African colony ? Qing China ? For the most part we don't want you here, and we don't need you here.
- unclesams-uncle 5y ago
  a) I have EU nationality so I'm here to stay. b) Like it or not, the US military still guarantees European security. An EU-wide military force could change that dynamic. c) Have you not watched Europe as a whole completely shoot themselves in the foot with an artillery rifle during this pandemic? The continent completely closed in on itself, falling back to national borders while the EU flubbed response after response. It took months to get a bloc-wide recovery bill which still hasn't been deployed (meanwhile the US have done three rounds, including one within weeks of the pandemic starting). The vaccine roll-out has been a debacle, starting with Brussels' decision to make group-wide purchases then waste months haggling over a few billion EUR. We're in June and there still isn't a common policy on inter-EU travel. This vaccine passport might roll out in a month, but even then there's no guarantee it will work. In many ways, Europe's inability to effectively govern got the worst of both worlds of the pandemic. We had strict lockdowns like in parts of APAC but w/o the contact tracing (didn't want to sacrifice GDPR for that), while at the same time, it didn't invest seriously in vaccines. The result? All of the deaths of the United States, with the economic carnage of strict lockdowns, while still lagging other parts of the developed world. There's a large disconnect here with many people trying to still hold onto an outdated and nationalistic way of thinking. That mentality conflicts with the modern reality of a global world where capital and innovation flows freely and competitively with little regard towards nationalist quirks. The only response to American tech superiority is to "tax and regulate it," yet policymakers here are still stunned as to why the continents most talented people and startups flock to the United States. I really hope this continent gets it together because there is too much potential and pressing issues to continue on the current trajectory.