8 ms·

Agreed, how did mollycoddling become a virtue? Look, I get that it's fun to commiserate about how stressful life can be, but people today are taking it to a who

Agreed, how did mollycoddling become a virtue? Look, I get that it's fun to commiserate about how stressful life can be, but people today are taking it to a whole new level. Some people are projecting that their lives are balanced on a knife's edge of disaster because of the burden of ... adult responsibilities? I sense this is coming about because of an cultural emphasis on empathy and validation rather than resilience and mindfulness.

saltdoo 5y ago
I had to google the word 'mollycoddling' and now feel the urge to use this word in conversation. Perhaps popularizing this fun term will help to de-virtue-ize this phenomenon!
browningstreet 5y ago
The humble bragging online about “my first haircut in 18 months” or “I’m going to a party for the first time since the pandemic and I don’t know if I’ll remember how to party!” can all roll into a ditch.
- matt-attack 5y ago
  Honest question: how are those two statements boastful in your mind?
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    Because many people read it as the following sarcastic virtue signal. "I was such an obedient shut in, and now that it's okay with the government and there's an experimental vaccine in me, I'm going back out."
    - helen___keller 5y ago
      Repeating the parents question: How is your (satirical) statement boastful?
      - reedjosh 5y ago
        It's boastful among those on the pro government control side of things (so most of HN according to the downvotes). It's signaling your virtue. It's saying aren't I a good citizen for listening to the _science_. Isn't it great that I locked myself up because I care about you.
        helen___keller 5y ago
        It sounds to me like you're reading too far into things and taking online posts too seriously. When someone posts a picture of a salad I don't suggest they're signalling their dietary virtue. When someone posts a picture of them hanging out with their friends I don't suggest they're signalling their virtue of being popular. Sometimes people post about things and it's fine to just ignore them and move on if it doesn't appeal to you.
        reedjosh 5y ago
        Fair. I guess when your world view is so different from the norm, and your opinions are actively censored by powerful companies https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/29/facebook-whistleblower-who-exposed-vaccine-hesitan/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/29/facebook-whis... It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking negatively of everyone on the other side. Particularly when it's hard to even have a conversation like this one. The original statement while likely not humble bragging or what not, does at least immediately announce what side you're on. If a conservative or libertarian did the same, they'd probably be chastised.
        whydoibother 5y ago
        You immediately assume the worst possible intent from those statements. Your cynicism casts it as some hollow statements, when most likely it was just people sharing there lives. Some might be fake, sure, bet I bet most aren’t. Try to be more compassionate of others and assume better intent.
        reedjosh 5y ago
  - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
    My most charitable interpretation is that the ability to have avoided leaving one's house in 18 months implies a certain level of wealth (both literally in terms of money but also in terms of life situation etc) I guess it could also be viewed as implicitly bragging about getting the vaccine (if that's the reason they're "reentering society"), but that follows less directly imo
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Steltek 5y ago
How many funerals did you go to in one month? Did you hesitate and worry about giving your own mother a hug afterwards? Are there newborn family members, that you've never even met, that are now walking and talking? If you think this year was simply "adult responsibilities" getting to people, you may be the one with empathy issues (if not a bucketload more).
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  > Did you hesitate and worry about giving your own mother a hug afterwards? But this behavior was never rational risk-reduction; it was always a result of the incredible fear-programming. Granted if you're making a point that trauma isn't always rational and can be induced unnecessarily by external sources I'm with you there. I would really like to see less navelgazing about the emotional trauma of the Zoom class (not talking about you but the whole "elite" socioeconomic class in general - software engineers, management consultants, etc etc), and more recognition of the harms of suspension of elective surgeries (here in CA all elective surgeries were suspended statewide for a month despite a surplus of ICU beds and despite the fact that even if ICU beds were at capacity not every elective surgery warranted being cancelled), of having a parent or grandparent dying alone because the hospital wouldn't let you in the same room as them, of even the "little" things like cancelled dental checkups, missed allergy shots, missed pediatric appointments etc
  - babelfish 5y ago
    If your mother was healthy and lived in the same household, maybe it wasn’t necessary behavior, but for folks like myself (and the countless millions of other Americans) whose family lives across the country and are severely immunocompromised, it was absolutely necessary.
    - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
      My point is that regardless of their immune status, briefly hugging someone in an outdoor environment is not actually a risky behavior. Thus why I'm saying that it's really much better viewed as trauma induced by the societal fear-programming rather than an inevitable result of the SARS-CoV-2 virus emerging. By the way, I do feel the need to mention this because it's not recognized enough: the closer someone is to death (as are most of the people at genuine risk of COVID-19), the higher the relative cost of spending a year of avoiding physical contact with loved ones. If your parent has only an expected value of 2 years left then they could easily spend 75% of that being deprived of social interaction and physical contact from loved ones. That's no small thing.
ljm 5y ago
I think this and the parent post are quite a cynical read on the situation. And some of the sibling comments I've now read seem equally cynical: turning experience into a competition of who had it worse. I think it's sad that this is the first thread you read for this article. Personally, I group empathy, resilience and mindfulness under the umbrella of compassion, as I do recognition and acknowledgment. You can take all of those things and use them in an unhealthy way, but I don't think you can call them the same thing anymore if you do that. I really do appreciate people being more authentic with their feelings and their vulnerability. It might not resonate with me when they do, but I'm not supposed to be a vessel for their shit, I can just recognise they have it and it's there. Same as I've got my own. And we're all dealing with something. I can also set a boundary and say I'm not in a place to go deep, but I hear ya; I don't have to open up to this all the time. This has little to do with a privileged elite, I'm sure the privileged elite would rather you continue to suppress these things because it stops you talking about what makes you unhappy, and if you stop talking about that then maybe you don't start organising to change things. Meanwhile, there are plenty of societies outside of our Western bubble that happily engage at this deeper level instead of balking at it, or bottling up.
- tolbish 5y ago
  You can be compassionate and kind-hearted while also acknowledging that not every problem should be validated. Sometimes navel-gazing can trick yourself into thinking your molehill of a problem is actually a mountain.
  - aaron-santos 5y ago
    A new tool in my cognitive-emotional toolkit is conceptualizing the difference between emotional validity and correctness. Far too often are the two concepts are left undifferentiated. Disentangling them leaves room for the empathy of understanding how people's emotional states evolve from their perspective, while also accounting for how their perception differs from reality. Why is this useful? By not immediately dismissing emotional states, we can analyze them, dissect them, and ultimately change them without unhelpful knee-jerk reactions which engage defense mechanisms. Don't fall for the trick of people asking for their perfectly valid emotional states to also be seen as correct.
Spivak 5y ago
I think actually talking about the fact that adult responsibilities are stressful af and that we've all just accepted that as normal is a good thing. I am remarkably better off financially than my peers and have less responsibility and I still feel as though it could all come crumbling down at any moment. If I or my partner can't work a full-time job, have sudden medical bills, get into a car accident there is no support network waiting for me and I don't have enough wealth accrued to support myself without my salary. We've based our whole society around everyone just being expected to be fundamentally financially insecure. The difference between upper-middle class and poor is how much junk I can buy, it doesn't make me any less insecure about all the big expenses that are required for me to live and work -- my pantry, my rent, my car, my health. I grew up poor and I thought having money would make it better. That when people say they don't have to worry about money they meant it. But what it really meant for me was you stop having to worry about small day-to-day expenses but I stil have the sword of damocles over my head for the big stuff. Empathy is a good thing and understanding that outside of the really really rich we're all in a similar situation is a good thing.
- bkav 5y ago
  I think you put it really well. I’ve gotten to a place of financial stability and shave realized how precarious it still is. I can weather small car emergencies but when it comes to medical bills, that’s a different story. I’m just working on emigrating to a country with a better social safety net. I’d rather pay more in taxes (though tbh it’s about the same) and not have to worry anymore.
  - bhelkey 5y ago
    > I’ve gotten to a place of financial stability I am glad to hear it! > have realized how precarious it still is. I can weather small car emergencies but when it comes to medical bills, that’s a different story. Would you mind elaborating a bit about your situation especially regarding health insurance? It seems like healthcare varies so much based on what health insurance one has.
- bhelkey 5y ago
  > I am remarkably better off financially than my peers and have less responsibility and I still feel as though it could all come crumbling down at any moment. If I or my partner can't work a full-time job, have sudden medical bills, get into a car accident there is no support network waiting for me and I don't have enough wealth accrued to support myself without my salary. Could you expand on that? It sounds like you and your partner work full-time. Do you and/or your partner get medical insurance through work? Do you get disability insurance? Do you have an emergency fund? Maybe I am reading too much into 'remarkably better off financially'. I would like to see where you are coming from but I am having trouble.
helen___keller 5y ago
> I sense this is coming about because of an cultural emphasis on empathy and validation rather than resilience and mindfulness. "This" meaning reading articles about mental health, or "this" meaning people experiencing mental health? People have had mental health issues forever. People have openly talked about them only in the past few years, when social media gave the whole world an outlet to talk about whatever they want with (usually) no real-world consequences(exceptions exist, obviously). I mean, when I was in college it wasn't quite as open so I didn't go around telling people that I sometimes daydream of walking in front of traffic. When I was working my first office job I didn't let many people know that I had panic attacks sitting at my desk for essentially no good reason. I'm glad I personally found out how to improve my mental state, but it's crazy to me to suggest that having a cultural emphasis on empathy and acceptance is causing people to experience mental health issues. That seems backwards to me.
0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago
> Agreed, how did mollycoddling become a virtue? It is a virtue for advertisers.
dTal 5y ago
I think you're conflating two different sets of responsibilities - those of the person who is struggling, and those of the people around them. Everyone agrees it's more virtuous to be resilient and mindful than to complain all the time. Thing is, it's also more virtuous to empathize with people than to tell them to get over themselves.

saltdoo 5y ago

I had to google the word 'mollycoddling' and now feel the urge to use this word in conversation. Perhaps popularizing this fun term will help to de-virtue-ize this phenomenon!

browningstreet 5y ago

The humble bragging online about “my first haircut in 18 months” or “I’m going to a party for the first time since the pandemic and I don’t know if I’ll remember how to party!” can all roll into a ditch.

matt-attack 5y ago
Honest question: how are those two statements boastful in your mind?
- reedjosh 5y ago
  Because many people read it as the following sarcastic virtue signal. "I was such an obedient shut in, and now that it's okay with the government and there's an experimental vaccine in me, I'm going back out."
  - helen___keller 5y ago
    Repeating the parents question: How is your (satirical) statement boastful?
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      It's boastful among those on the pro government control side of things (so most of HN according to the downvotes). It's signaling your virtue. It's saying aren't I a good citizen for listening to the _science_. Isn't it great that I locked myself up because I care about you.
      - helen___keller 5y ago
        It sounds to me like you're reading too far into things and taking online posts too seriously. When someone posts a picture of a salad I don't suggest they're signalling their dietary virtue. When someone posts a picture of them hanging out with their friends I don't suggest they're signalling their virtue of being popular. Sometimes people post about things and it's fine to just ignore them and move on if it doesn't appeal to you.
        reedjosh 5y ago
        Fair. I guess when your world view is so different from the norm, and your opinions are actively censored by powerful companies https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/29/facebook-whistleblower-who-exposed-vaccine-hesitan/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/29/facebook-whis... It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking negatively of everyone on the other side. Particularly when it's hard to even have a conversation like this one. The original statement while likely not humble bragging or what not, does at least immediately announce what side you're on. If a conservative or libertarian did the same, they'd probably be chastised.
      - whydoibother 5y ago
        You immediately assume the worst possible intent from those statements. Your cynicism casts it as some hollow statements, when most likely it was just people sharing there lives. Some might be fake, sure, bet I bet most aren’t. Try to be more compassionate of others and assume better intent.
        reedjosh 5y ago
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  My most charitable interpretation is that the ability to have avoided leaving one's house in 18 months implies a certain level of wealth (both literally in terms of money but also in terms of life situation etc) I guess it could also be viewed as implicitly bragging about getting the vaccine (if that's the reason they're "reentering society"), but that follows less directly imo
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Steltek 5y ago

How many funerals did you go to in one month? Did you hesitate and worry about giving your own mother a hug afterwards? Are there newborn family members, that you've never even met, that are now walking and talking? If you think this year was simply "adult responsibilities" getting to people, you may be the one with empathy issues (if not a bucketload more).

__blockcipher__ 5y ago
> Did you hesitate and worry about giving your own mother a hug afterwards? But this behavior was never rational risk-reduction; it was always a result of the incredible fear-programming. Granted if you're making a point that trauma isn't always rational and can be induced unnecessarily by external sources I'm with you there. I would really like to see less navelgazing about the emotional trauma of the Zoom class (not talking about you but the whole "elite" socioeconomic class in general - software engineers, management consultants, etc etc), and more recognition of the harms of suspension of elective surgeries (here in CA all elective surgeries were suspended statewide for a month despite a surplus of ICU beds and despite the fact that even if ICU beds were at capacity not every elective surgery warranted being cancelled), of having a parent or grandparent dying alone because the hospital wouldn't let you in the same room as them, of even the "little" things like cancelled dental checkups, missed allergy shots, missed pediatric appointments etc
- babelfish 5y ago
  If your mother was healthy and lived in the same household, maybe it wasn’t necessary behavior, but for folks like myself (and the countless millions of other Americans) whose family lives across the country and are severely immunocompromised, it was absolutely necessary.
  - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
    My point is that regardless of their immune status, briefly hugging someone in an outdoor environment is not actually a risky behavior. Thus why I'm saying that it's really much better viewed as trauma induced by the societal fear-programming rather than an inevitable result of the SARS-CoV-2 virus emerging. By the way, I do feel the need to mention this because it's not recognized enough: the closer someone is to death (as are most of the people at genuine risk of COVID-19), the higher the relative cost of spending a year of avoiding physical contact with loved ones. If your parent has only an expected value of 2 years left then they could easily spend 75% of that being deprived of social interaction and physical contact from loved ones. That's no small thing.

ljm 5y ago

I think this and the parent post are quite a cynical read on the situation. And some of the sibling comments I've now read seem equally cynical: turning experience into a competition of who had it worse. I think it's sad that this is the first thread you read for this article. Personally, I group empathy, resilience and mindfulness under the umbrella of compassion, as I do recognition and acknowledgment. You can take all of those things and use them in an unhealthy way, but I don't think you can call them the same thing anymore if you do that. I really do appreciate people being more authentic with their feelings and their vulnerability. It might not resonate with me when they do, but I'm not supposed to be a vessel for their shit, I can just recognise they have it and it's there. Same as I've got my own. And we're all dealing with something. I can also set a boundary and say I'm not in a place to go deep, but I hear ya; I don't have to open up to this all the time. This has little to do with a privileged elite, I'm sure the privileged elite would rather you continue to suppress these things because it stops you talking about what makes you unhappy, and if you stop talking about that then maybe you don't start organising to change things. Meanwhile, there are plenty of societies outside of our Western bubble that happily engage at this deeper level instead of balking at it, or bottling up.

tolbish 5y ago
You can be compassionate and kind-hearted while also acknowledging that not every problem should be validated. Sometimes navel-gazing can trick yourself into thinking your molehill of a problem is actually a mountain.
- aaron-santos 5y ago
  A new tool in my cognitive-emotional toolkit is conceptualizing the difference between emotional validity and correctness. Far too often are the two concepts are left undifferentiated. Disentangling them leaves room for the empathy of understanding how people's emotional states evolve from their perspective, while also accounting for how their perception differs from reality. Why is this useful? By not immediately dismissing emotional states, we can analyze them, dissect them, and ultimately change them without unhelpful knee-jerk reactions which engage defense mechanisms. Don't fall for the trick of people asking for their perfectly valid emotional states to also be seen as correct.

Spivak 5y ago

I think actually talking about the fact that adult responsibilities are stressful af and that we've all just accepted that as normal is a good thing. I am remarkably better off financially than my peers and have less responsibility and I still feel as though it could all come crumbling down at any moment. If I or my partner can't work a full-time job, have sudden medical bills, get into a car accident there is no support network waiting for me and I don't have enough wealth accrued to support myself without my salary. We've based our whole society around everyone just being expected to be fundamentally financially insecure. The difference between upper-middle class and poor is how much junk I can buy, it doesn't make me any less insecure about all the big expenses that are required for me to live and work -- my pantry, my rent, my car, my health. I grew up poor and I thought having money would make it better. That when people say they don't have to worry about money they meant it. But what it really meant for me was you stop having to worry about small day-to-day expenses but I stil have the sword of damocles over my head for the big stuff. Empathy is a good thing and understanding that outside of the really really rich we're all in a similar situation is a good thing.

bkav 5y ago
I think you put it really well. I’ve gotten to a place of financial stability and shave realized how precarious it still is. I can weather small car emergencies but when it comes to medical bills, that’s a different story. I’m just working on emigrating to a country with a better social safety net. I’d rather pay more in taxes (though tbh it’s about the same) and not have to worry anymore.
- bhelkey 5y ago
  > I’ve gotten to a place of financial stability I am glad to hear it! > have realized how precarious it still is. I can weather small car emergencies but when it comes to medical bills, that’s a different story. Would you mind elaborating a bit about your situation especially regarding health insurance? It seems like healthcare varies so much based on what health insurance one has.
bhelkey 5y ago
> I am remarkably better off financially than my peers and have less responsibility and I still feel as though it could all come crumbling down at any moment. If I or my partner can't work a full-time job, have sudden medical bills, get into a car accident there is no support network waiting for me and I don't have enough wealth accrued to support myself without my salary. Could you expand on that? It sounds like you and your partner work full-time. Do you and/or your partner get medical insurance through work? Do you get disability insurance? Do you have an emergency fund? Maybe I am reading too much into 'remarkably better off financially'. I would like to see where you are coming from but I am having trouble.

helen___keller 5y ago

> I sense this is coming about because of an cultural emphasis on empathy and validation rather than resilience and mindfulness. "This" meaning reading articles about mental health, or "this" meaning people experiencing mental health? People have had mental health issues forever. People have openly talked about them only in the past few years, when social media gave the whole world an outlet to talk about whatever they want with (usually) no real-world consequences(exceptions exist, obviously). I mean, when I was in college it wasn't quite as open so I didn't go around telling people that I sometimes daydream of walking in front of traffic. When I was working my first office job I didn't let many people know that I had panic attacks sitting at my desk for essentially no good reason. I'm glad I personally found out how to improve my mental state, but it's crazy to me to suggest that having a cultural emphasis on empathy and acceptance is causing people to experience mental health issues. That seems backwards to me.

0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago

> Agreed, how did mollycoddling become a virtue? It is a virtue for advertisers.

dTal 5y ago

I think you're conflating two different sets of responsibilities - those of the person who is struggling, and those of the people around them. Everyone agrees it's more virtuous to be resilient and mindful than to complain all the time. Thing is, it's also more virtuous to empathize with people than to tell them to get over themselves.