10 ms·

On the subject of masks. If it didn’t stick after the Spanish flu, what makes you think it is different this time?

jaywalk 5y ago
After the Spanish flu there were no Facebook groups or subreddits to engage in a circle-jerk with thousands of others around the world about how virtuous your continued mask-wearing is.
ericmay 5y ago
Different people and cultures - I don't think it'll stick for all but there are people who enjoy wearing masks. They like hiding behind them, or they feel safe. There are others who use them as a way to gain victim status in society - these are unique present-day phenomenon.
- syncbehind 5y ago
  >There are others who use them as a way to gain victim status in society Can you elaborate on this?
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Sure - there are people in society who gain status by being a victim of some injustice or event. It means others will tend to give them social sympathy points, cater to their needs, and pay attention to them. In the case of masks - some will wear a mask for no scientific reason, just that they can become a victim. "Sorry I can't attend that event because it's not mask friendly." "Sorry do you think you could wear a mask when we're in a meeting together?" "Sorry I don't go to happy hours b/c of my mask" etc. It's going to be a whole subculture. There will be blogs, lifestyle magazines, you name it. "How to live your best life when others aren't masking up" - "top 10 skin friendly masks to wear" whatever. -edit- And just to make it clear I always wear a mask and follow state and CDC guidelines. I don't care about wearing one. Whatever the gov't says is what I'm going to follow. These are just personal observations.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I don't think it'll stick for all but there are people who enjoy wearing masks I can't see that being any more than a small minority. I don't mind wearing one but it is an inconvenience.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  People who are immuno-compromised, of course will want to wear masks People who are currently ill with some respiratory illness and don't want to share it. And finally I was reading an article about a few people with various negative facial features that they wished to cover (a mole, a neurological condition that caused unwanted lip movements, a facial scar, etc.) have really appreciated the cover of wearing a mask.
  - ali92hm 5y ago
    Add people with allergies to that list as well. I've realized how much my allergies are better in the spring (both last year and this year) as a result of wearing a mask when I'm outside.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    > People who are immuno-compromised, of course will want to wear masks > People who are currently ill with some respiratory illness and don't want to share it. These are both new to western society. I do think it was always a bit weird we weren't wearing masks when sick before last year, but maybe it was a good thing? Idk. The immuno-compromised thing is bizarre. Like where were masks before 2020 for those individuals? There are varying degrees of this, and I'm sure a tiny amount of people who were at high enough risk were wearing one, but the vast, vast majority weren't. > And finally I was reading an article about a few people with various negative facial features that they wished to cover (a mole, a neurological condition that caused unwanted lip movements, a facial scar, etc.) have really appreciated the cover of wearing a mask. Yea I can see that, though I would suggest it's likely to be an bad idea psychologically. The "reveal" aspect of the deformity or unpleasantness will be extremely traumatic for the revealer versus normalizing and acceptance.
    - Anthony-G 5y ago
      I guess the immuno-compromised and those who currently have a mild respiratory infection now feel they have “permission” from society to wear a mask. A non-East Asian person wearing a mask two years ago would have attracted a range of unwelcome behaviour – quizzical looks (mildest), questions, comments, verbal or even physical abuse (worst-case scenario) – depending on who they encounter. Personally, I hope our knowledge and scientific understanding improves with regard to the effectiveness of mask wearing in a non-medical environment to mitigate either spreading or being infected by pathogens.
- p_j_w 5y ago
  And then there are people who think wearing a mask is a worthwhile thing to do to protect other people when they have some contagious respiratory disease. You might call this category "people with a sense of common decency."
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Yea it’s a bit bizarre we’ve had this whole culture of not doing that (COVID-19 being irrelevant here). Remember the phrase “it’s going around the office”? Yea that’s going extinct.
chitowneats 5y ago
This time we have a legitimate competitor on the world stage who absolutely swear that masks work and that anyone who denies that is killing their population unnecessarily. We also have social media now, where people can completely inhabit their own worlds of "truth". I think the parent comment is onto something. Some people really are true believers now. At this point I doubt they will be dissuaded, as long as there is a Trump-electorate sized rump (~30%) who continue masking. If that dwindles to, say, 10% or 15%, then I could imagine them feeling enough shame to come down off the ledge.
- rblatz 5y ago
  I’ve reread this several times. I’m not really sure what you are saying here? The biggest hint is the italicized “swears” are you saying that you think masks are a hoax?
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    No, I don't believe they're a "hoax". I believe they are a well-intentioned attempt to control viral spread. But just like during Spanish Flu, they have not meaningfully changed outcomes for localities that required them vs. those that didn't. The scientific consensus in Western medicine for 100 years after analysis of Spanish Flu, was that masks do not prevent or slow the spread of a respiratory pandemic. You'd need a respirator for that (N95 "mask"), and you'd need to wear it all the time given what we know now about airborne transmission of Sars-Cov-2. We will soon be returning to this consensus with any luck: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v... "Randomized control trials have not clearly demonstrated mask efficacy against respiratory viruses, and observational studies conflict on whether mask use predicts lower infection rates. We hypothesized that statewide mask mandates and mask use are associated with lower COVID-19 case growth rates in the United States..." "Conclusion: mask mandates and use are not associated with slower state-level COVID-19 spread during COVID-19 growth surges. Containment requires future research and implementation of existing efficacious strategies"
    - 5y ago
perardi 5y ago
I am extremely skeptical masks will stick in suburban and rural areas. Urban areas with mass transit? Maybe. I think wearing a mask on the Red Line during cold and flu season would be smart.
- caddemon 5y ago
  Agreed on mass transit, I also think wearing the mask outside during pollen season helped a bit with my allergies, so there's a few use cases where I'll probably still wear them. Especially because I've collected so many different designs at this point.
gilbetron 5y ago
Mostly because the world is different now. Information and science was sparse then. We now have a strong body of evidence that masks help significantly with reducing the spread of at least some types of pathogens. However, I wouldn't shock me if we went back to no masks again. But it wouldn't shock me if they remained around on some level, either. Before 2020, in the US at least, it was bizarre to see someone wearing them. That has changed.
- lm28469 5y ago
  I sure hope masks will be mandatory in doctor's waiting rooms / hospitals. Nothing better than being forced to go in person to a doctor to pick up a sick note for your employer (for a minor health issue like headache or whatever) and get sick while waiting in an unventilated room full of sick people coughing and sneezing.
- hervature 5y ago
  We had 100 years to apply our better access to “information and science”. We had multiple recent flu outbreaks of SARS, MERS, and H1N1. But this time COVID is different. Because it killed more people? The people from 1918 weren’t stupid, they saw their friends and family die in much greater numbers. The day the mask mandate was repealed for vaccinated individuals, half the people at the grocery store don’t wear them anymore. Nevada, where I live, is only 40% vaccinated. There is of course momentum from the mandates, but all signals point to masks being shedded as soon as possible.

After the Spanish flu there were no Facebook groups or subreddits to engage in a circle-jerk with thousands of others around the world about how virtuous your continued mask-wearing is.

ericmay 5y ago

Different people and cultures - I don't think it'll stick for all but there are people who enjoy wearing masks. They like hiding behind them, or they feel safe. There are others who use them as a way to gain victim status in society - these are unique present-day phenomenon.

syncbehind 5y ago
>There are others who use them as a way to gain victim status in society Can you elaborate on this?
- ericmay 5y ago
  Sure - there are people in society who gain status by being a victim of some injustice or event. It means others will tend to give them social sympathy points, cater to their needs, and pay attention to them. In the case of masks - some will wear a mask for no scientific reason, just that they can become a victim. "Sorry I can't attend that event because it's not mask friendly." "Sorry do you think you could wear a mask when we're in a meeting together?" "Sorry I don't go to happy hours b/c of my mask" etc. It's going to be a whole subculture. There will be blogs, lifestyle magazines, you name it. "How to live your best life when others aren't masking up" - "top 10 skin friendly masks to wear" whatever. -edit- And just to make it clear I always wear a mask and follow state and CDC guidelines. I don't care about wearing one. Whatever the gov't says is what I'm going to follow. These are just personal observations.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
I don't think it'll stick for all but there are people who enjoy wearing masks I can't see that being any more than a small minority. I don't mind wearing one but it is an inconvenience.
NortySpock 5y ago
People who are immuno-compromised, of course will want to wear masks People who are currently ill with some respiratory illness and don't want to share it. And finally I was reading an article about a few people with various negative facial features that they wished to cover (a mole, a neurological condition that caused unwanted lip movements, a facial scar, etc.) have really appreciated the cover of wearing a mask.
- ali92hm 5y ago
  Add people with allergies to that list as well. I've realized how much my allergies are better in the spring (both last year and this year) as a result of wearing a mask when I'm outside.
- ericmay 5y ago
  > People who are immuno-compromised, of course will want to wear masks > People who are currently ill with some respiratory illness and don't want to share it. These are both new to western society. I do think it was always a bit weird we weren't wearing masks when sick before last year, but maybe it was a good thing? Idk. The immuno-compromised thing is bizarre. Like where were masks before 2020 for those individuals? There are varying degrees of this, and I'm sure a tiny amount of people who were at high enough risk were wearing one, but the vast, vast majority weren't. > And finally I was reading an article about a few people with various negative facial features that they wished to cover (a mole, a neurological condition that caused unwanted lip movements, a facial scar, etc.) have really appreciated the cover of wearing a mask. Yea I can see that, though I would suggest it's likely to be an bad idea psychologically. The "reveal" aspect of the deformity or unpleasantness will be extremely traumatic for the revealer versus normalizing and acceptance.
  - Anthony-G 5y ago
    I guess the immuno-compromised and those who currently have a mild respiratory infection now feel they have “permission” from society to wear a mask. A non-East Asian person wearing a mask two years ago would have attracted a range of unwelcome behaviour – quizzical looks (mildest), questions, comments, verbal or even physical abuse (worst-case scenario) – depending on who they encounter. Personally, I hope our knowledge and scientific understanding improves with regard to the effectiveness of mask wearing in a non-medical environment to mitigate either spreading or being infected by pathogens.
p_j_w 5y ago
And then there are people who think wearing a mask is a worthwhile thing to do to protect other people when they have some contagious respiratory disease. You might call this category "people with a sense of common decency."
- ericmay 5y ago
  Yea it’s a bit bizarre we’ve had this whole culture of not doing that (COVID-19 being irrelevant here). Remember the phrase “it’s going around the office”? Yea that’s going extinct.

chitowneats 5y ago

This time we have a legitimate competitor on the world stage who absolutely swear that masks work and that anyone who denies that is killing their population unnecessarily. We also have social media now, where people can completely inhabit their own worlds of "truth". I think the parent comment is onto something. Some people really are true believers now. At this point I doubt they will be dissuaded, as long as there is a Trump-electorate sized rump (~30%) who continue masking. If that dwindles to, say, 10% or 15%, then I could imagine them feeling enough shame to come down off the ledge.

rblatz 5y ago
I’ve reread this several times. I’m not really sure what you are saying here? The biggest hint is the italicized “swears” are you saying that you think masks are a hoax?
- chitowneats 5y ago
  No, I don't believe they're a "hoax". I believe they are a well-intentioned attempt to control viral spread. But just like during Spanish Flu, they have not meaningfully changed outcomes for localities that required them vs. those that didn't. The scientific consensus in Western medicine for 100 years after analysis of Spanish Flu, was that masks do not prevent or slow the spread of a respiratory pandemic. You'd need a respirator for that (N95 "mask"), and you'd need to wear it all the time given what we know now about airborne transmission of Sars-Cov-2. We will soon be returning to this consensus with any luck: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v... "Randomized control trials have not clearly demonstrated mask efficacy against respiratory viruses, and observational studies conflict on whether mask use predicts lower infection rates. We hypothesized that statewide mask mandates and mask use are associated with lower COVID-19 case growth rates in the United States..." "Conclusion: mask mandates and use are not associated with slower state-level COVID-19 spread during COVID-19 growth surges. Containment requires future research and implementation of existing efficacious strategies"
  - 5y ago

perardi 5y ago

I am extremely skeptical masks will stick in suburban and rural areas. Urban areas with mass transit? Maybe. I think wearing a mask on the Red Line during cold and flu season would be smart.

caddemon 5y ago
Agreed on mass transit, I also think wearing the mask outside during pollen season helped a bit with my allergies, so there's a few use cases where I'll probably still wear them. Especially because I've collected so many different designs at this point.

gilbetron 5y ago

Mostly because the world is different now. Information and science was sparse then. We now have a strong body of evidence that masks help significantly with reducing the spread of at least some types of pathogens. However, I wouldn't shock me if we went back to no masks again. But it wouldn't shock me if they remained around on some level, either. Before 2020, in the US at least, it was bizarre to see someone wearing them. That has changed.

lm28469 5y ago
I sure hope masks will be mandatory in doctor's waiting rooms / hospitals. Nothing better than being forced to go in person to a doctor to pick up a sick note for your employer (for a minor health issue like headache or whatever) and get sick while waiting in an unventilated room full of sick people coughing and sneezing.
hervature 5y ago
We had 100 years to apply our better access to “information and science”. We had multiple recent flu outbreaks of SARS, MERS, and H1N1. But this time COVID is different. Because it killed more people? The people from 1918 weren’t stupid, they saw their friends and family die in much greater numbers. The day the mask mandate was repealed for vaccinated individuals, half the people at the grocery store don’t wear them anymore. Nevada, where I live, is only 40% vaccinated. There is of course momentum from the mandates, but all signals point to masks being shedded as soon as possible.