4 ms·

Unionization is not net positive for everyone. Why are you looking at "good union" examples instead of much more realistic "bad" ones?

wizzwizz4 5y ago
Because I'm not an American business owner, nor cheering for one.
- golergka 5y ago
  Why does it cause you to pick the evidence that confirms what you already believe in? Do you think that being blind to reality is good for your "team"?
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    I'm not being blind to reality. The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. I've only ever heard about bad unions on Hacker News; even police unions are good at being unions (though when you're unionising against the people, that's an inversion of the power dynamics a union is meant to promote, so I still don't like police unions). Believing second-hand rumours on the internet would be less intellectually honest than believing my anecdotal evidence.
    - triceratops 5y ago
      > even police unions are good at being unions Right?! They suck for everyone else, but as far as looking out for their members' interests, they're pretty much the gold standard.
    - jholman 5y ago
      > The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. Wild. As a non-American non-employer, my current job is unionized, and I believe that union to be a major factor in the rampant dysfunction, though probably not the driving factor. I think that every time I've had a friend or family member working in a union environment that wasn't more-or-less minimum wage (e.g. unionized Starbucks workers are a counter-example to the pattern I'm describing) they've had similar observations. I'm still very hesitant to attack unions in general, because as a student of history it's pretty clear that the situation we have now is better than the situation without unions. So I'd rather live in a unionized society than a non-unionized society, but I'd rather work for a non-unionized employer than a unionized employer.
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        Would you say that cooperatives are better than unions?
    - golergka 5y ago
      > The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. Well, that's what I would expect to see in US too, but it's a survivorship bias at work. Obviously, in country which is (quite commendably, in my opinion) anti-union, only capable unions would be able to survive. > that's an inversion of the power dynamics a union is meant to promote Power dynamics that you are talking about are pieces of fiction, which oversimplify reality in order to boost one or another political viewpoint. It's a very popular piece of fiction, too: paint one side as "the ordinary people", the underdog, morally superior, and thus taken advantage of. And the other side is, obviously, the devil. Anyone sees these stories quite for what they are when it's the story from the other side of political spectrum. For example, if anyone would come here to HN and tell the story of immigrants taking "our jobs", it would be dead in 5 minutes, and all the logical inconsistencies and fallacies in it would be split open. And, just to be clear about my personal political opinions — this takedown would be completely correct. But it works for both sides. "The people" are often not much of an underdog, as are "the workers". I know quite a lot of real businesses, even in IT, where "the man", the business owner, takes home less money than he pays his senior engineers. The situation with police unions just highlights this disparity between the story in a way that you can't just sweep under the rug — but it's always there, even if less apparent.
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        > It's a very popular piece of fiction, too: paint one side as "the ordinary people", the underdog, morally superior, and thus taken advantage of. And the other side is, obviously, the devil. ? That's not what I mean at all. Think of Uber; the drivers don't have much control over when they work, if they want to afford to live in a building. The people in charge of Uber, however, do have control over when the drivers work. In a school, the teachers have more power than the children – but oftentimes when that power is exercised, it's in dealing with bullying or classroom disruption. Acknowledging that some people have more power than others is not the same thing as declaring the powerful evil. > "The people" are often not much of an underdog, as are "the workers". But in this particular instance, they are.

wizzwizz4 5y ago

Because I'm not an American business owner, nor cheering for one.

golergka 5y ago
Why does it cause you to pick the evidence that confirms what you already believe in? Do you think that being blind to reality is good for your "team"?
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  I'm not being blind to reality. The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. I've only ever heard about bad unions on Hacker News; even police unions are good at being unions (though when you're unionising against the people, that's an inversion of the power dynamics a union is meant to promote, so I still don't like police unions). Believing second-hand rumours on the internet would be less intellectually honest than believing my anecdotal evidence.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    > even police unions are good at being unions Right?! They suck for everyone else, but as far as looking out for their members' interests, they're pretty much the gold standard.
  - jholman 5y ago
    > The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. Wild. As a non-American non-employer, my current job is unionized, and I believe that union to be a major factor in the rampant dysfunction, though probably not the driving factor. I think that every time I've had a friend or family member working in a union environment that wasn't more-or-less minimum wage (e.g. unionized Starbucks workers are a counter-example to the pattern I'm describing) they've had similar observations. I'm still very hesitant to attack unions in general, because as a student of history it's pretty clear that the situation we have now is better than the situation without unions. So I'd rather live in a unionized society than a non-unionized society, but I'd rather work for a non-unionized employer than a unionized employer.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Would you say that cooperatives are better than unions?
  - golergka 5y ago
    > The only unions I have ever interacted with have been good ones. Well, that's what I would expect to see in US too, but it's a survivorship bias at work. Obviously, in country which is (quite commendably, in my opinion) anti-union, only capable unions would be able to survive. > that's an inversion of the power dynamics a union is meant to promote Power dynamics that you are talking about are pieces of fiction, which oversimplify reality in order to boost one or another political viewpoint. It's a very popular piece of fiction, too: paint one side as "the ordinary people", the underdog, morally superior, and thus taken advantage of. And the other side is, obviously, the devil. Anyone sees these stories quite for what they are when it's the story from the other side of political spectrum. For example, if anyone would come here to HN and tell the story of immigrants taking "our jobs", it would be dead in 5 minutes, and all the logical inconsistencies and fallacies in it would be split open. And, just to be clear about my personal political opinions — this takedown would be completely correct. But it works for both sides. "The people" are often not much of an underdog, as are "the workers". I know quite a lot of real businesses, even in IT, where "the man", the business owner, takes home less money than he pays his senior engineers. The situation with police unions just highlights this disparity between the story in a way that you can't just sweep under the rug — but it's always there, even if less apparent.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      > It's a very popular piece of fiction, too: paint one side as "the ordinary people", the underdog, morally superior, and thus taken advantage of. And the other side is, obviously, the devil. ? That's not what I mean at all. Think of Uber; the drivers don't have much control over when they work, if they want to afford to live in a building. The people in charge of Uber, however, do have control over when the drivers work. In a school, the teachers have more power than the children – but oftentimes when that power is exercised, it's in dealing with bullying or classroom disruption. Acknowledging that some people have more power than others is not the same thing as declaring the powerful evil. > "The people" are often not much of an underdog, as are "the workers". But in this particular instance, they are.