19 ms·

> If more states ban covid-passports, I wonder if the EU would rather not have tourists than allow visitations. That's certainly a possibility if safety really

> If more states ban covid-passports, I wonder if the EU would rather not have tourists than allow visitations. That's certainly a possibility if safety really is a concern. But I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. I don't think that others, who want to travel the world really mind getting the necessary documentation. The whole principle that you need to prove vaccination to be let into a country is not really new. And there's the yellow vaccine passport issued by the WHO, which exists for decades. I needed to show proof for a yellow fever vaccination when travelling to Venezuela. And that was in 1989.

Pyramus 5y ago
> The whole principle that you need to prove vaccination to be let into a country is not really new. Exactly. Necessary and recommended vaccinations are one of the first things to check when planning a trip to destinations in Africa, South East Asia etc.
- mirekrusin 5y ago
  In many countries they don't accept kids to nursery without up to date vacinnation card.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    They also don’t allow you to collect welfare unless you and your kids have received your vaccinations (Australia).
  - hwbehrens 5y ago
    This is true in the U.S. as well [0]. Some states allow for religious, philosophical, or medical exemptions; these exceptions are similar to the systems implemented in the Netherlands (religious [1]), Australia (philosophical [2]) or Germany (medical [1]). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy_in_the_United_States#School_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy_in_the_Unit... [1]: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1057/s41271-019-00163-8.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1057/s41271-019-001... [2]: https://www.sabin.org/sites/sabin.org/files/restricted/Salmon_etal_compulsory_imm_06.pdf https://www.sabin.org/sites/sabin.org/files/restricted/Salmo...
- frankfrankfrank 5y ago
  As someone with a vaccine passport issued by the US government and sponsored by the UN from the past, I would like to ask people to think beyond the pandemic and even the vaccine itself. People are clearly not following the logic to even just a few steps forward, let alone to its final conclusion. This is not about vaccines or even this or any other pandemic, it's about control and even engineering humans. It should not be hard to find the leaked ~2004 pentagon briefing on the use of vaccines to alter the minds of people to become less "extreme". You may think that is a good thing, because of course, we have all be conditioned that extreme = bad; but what happens when your position becomes "extreme", or you do not even realize you are not able to have certain thoughts or feelings because your mind has been altered to where you don't have such "extreme" thoughts as you would have otherwise had, e.g., maybe you want to be free to choose thing for yourself like an extremist. And yes, that pentagon briefing on the already then proven method to use vaccines to permanently alter brain functions exists and can be found if one looks for it.
- h0nd 5y ago
  I have travelled South East Asia for several years and never been asked to show any proof.
Mediterraneo10 5y ago
There are people in the travel community who oppose restrictions, sometimes hyperbolically so. For the last year, travel forums have been full of posts by people who intentionally chose destinations because not only would those country let them in, but mask-wearing and distancing wasn't really enforced there. With regard to need to prove vaccination, note that the WHO yellow-fever certificate was originally good for 10 years, and recently the WHO announced that it should be good for life. COVID passports are rather different in that they are passed on a QR code, so your certificate could be deemed invalid by your country’s authorities at any time. If you are traveling when that happens, they you might suddenly have to search for whatever new booster vaccine is required for onward travel, which might be a challenge if you are in the developing world.
- CaptainZapp 5y ago
  I have my Covid shots entered into the WHO yellow vaccination passport and assume that's good enough for the time being until a specific "QR code passport" is released. edited to add: Why should a civilized country just revoke certification once you're fully vaccinated?
  - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
    When the new apps and digital certificates were announced, being able to revoke certification at any time was touted as one of their major advantages over traditional vaccine certificates. This way, if a new variant arises that preexisting vaccines don’t protect against, or if a state wants to enforce annual booster shots, they can just invalidate older certificates by updating the database entry to which the QR code points.
    - account42 5y ago
      Neither new variants and boosters are reasons for revokation as both are better served by information about the vaccine administered and a timestamp.
    - CaptainZapp 5y ago
lucideer 5y ago
> I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. I think this may vary by destination. I have no data (not sure if such data exists) but, anecdotally, living in Ireland, I get the impression that many do travel here at least. It may be that different destinations hold different draws (& I'm told the Irish-American community has diverged significantly in political leanings compared to Ireland/Europe)
- h0nd 5y ago
  I would love to see a fight between anti and pro covid fanatics.
6f8986c3 5y ago
> That's certainly a possibility if safety really is a concern. But I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. That is incredibly mean-spirited. And exactly what I have come to expect. I am fully vaccinated: measles, rubella, all the rest. I will not get the COVID shot. I never get the annual flu shot, either. I am skeptical of a highly experimental new treatment for a disease that isn't all that lethal. My body, my choice. If I die, that's my problem. You go ahead and get the shot. Your body, your choice. If you "trust the science", it'll give you immunity, and you don't need to worry about me at all. My attitude is mainstream. You just never listen to it, because you'd probably prefer that CNN or the NYT "interpret" it for you.
- mittermayr 5y ago
  "If I die, that's my problem." — if it were that easy, I'd be fully on board with you. I am not a fan of being told what I should be doing. In a society (like they say, no man is an island), however, it's not always that clear cut. Once you're infected, the disease does not only affect you and your body. You pass it on to others, you may have an unexpected reaction (which can now be said with quite some certainty, is at the very last the same or worse than whatever the vaccine would do to you) and that reaction means you may use up unexpected resources provided by society. If you live on a farm out in the desert all by yourself, don't need a doctor or hospital, and end up dying or being fine without other people affected, then sure, you do you. That I fully support. Seeing you post here in HackerNews, I'd guess you'd actually enjoy reading up (and are qualified to understand) on mRNA technology, including the Pfizer "disassembly" for it on GitHub. In terms of your attitude being mainstream, that'll depend on how many people end up getting the vaccine. That sort of thing tends to change quickly (in both ways).
  - 6f8986c3 5y ago
    > You pass it on to others Those "others" have spent the past five years screaming at me and threatening me. I stopped caring about or listening to them a long time ago.
slumdev 5y ago
> I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. You'd be wrong. I've received more vaccines than 99.99% of the people you meet. I visit the doctor and get every jab that's recommended before every international trip (along with documentation for my prescriptions in case I'm questioned about them at a border,) but I will not receive any of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines until they are adequately tested. Adequate testing takes about a decade. I'm not really concerned about their efficacy, but anyone who tells you that their long-term safety is already established is lying to you.
- RspecMAuthortah 5y ago
  Not sure why you are downvoted. Health officials in US have done a phenomenal job showing how incompetent they were during this crisis. From initial downplay, then the mask fiasco, then trying to covering up the lab leak hypothesis, and of course politicizing the vaccine release timeline, they have blood on their hands. Then to say we need to blindly trust them on what they are saying on safety profile of the vaccine, its completely crazy. And through it all they never said we are sorry. I will never trust US Health Authorities anymore. Period.
  - guitarbill 5y ago
    Maybe because saying "Adequate testing takes about a decade" is kinda BS - maybe in poster's opinion that's what "adequate" means. Realistically, the vaccine just has to be safer than getting Covid and it's long-term effects. Because we've seen in most Western nations that not getting Covid doesn't work in general. > I will never trust US Health Authorities anymore It's a shame some of their mistakes have eroded trust, and for what it's worth, I think easing masking requirements for vaccinated people was rash. But: > then trying to covering up the lab leak hypothesis, and of course politicizing the vaccine release timeline, they have blood on their hands. Come on. With all due respect, the lab leak hypothesis does not change the fact Covid exists now and we all have to deal with it, and I'm not even sure what "politicizing the vaccine release timeline" even means, or how a vaccine rollout better than Europe (so far) means they have blood on their hands. There is for sure some politics involved, which can be seen between the different approaches between the administrations. But that just points to factors outside health officials. So what about other countries then? Are they equally untrustworthy? And with all the vaccinations given so far, the safety profile of some vaccines (Pfizer/BioNTech) seems very good (compared to AZ, which is still not bad). At this point, data exists on the short term effects and blind trust is not necessary. On the long term, who knows? But you'd be in the same boat as millions of other people if there were wide-spread effects. If not, then it'd be like cancer or car accidents. Shit does sometimes happen, and often it's out of our control.
hervature 5y ago
As someone who has my yellow vaccine passport from the WHO because I travel to South America, I disagree with this sentiment. I view this move by the EU more akin to TSA than the yellow fever vaccine. I believe it will turn into strictly an annoyance to travelers. The premise of TSA was straightforward response to a bad thing that occurred and turned into a useless beast and these programs appear to have the same fingerprints. For example, what is different now than before when we didn't require proof of seasonal flu shot (or any vaccine for that matter)? Are we admitting this was a mistake? If so, then why just COVID? Add MMR, DTaP, and seasonal flu to the list. Is this a temporary program until COVID-19 is sufficiently vaccinated against? If so, why is this not the first thing mentioned? What about new variants of the disease? Will we need booster shots every year? If so, then we've already significantly diverged from the yellow fever program. If this is only COVID-19, then why even bother with the program? Inevitably, I believe the program will turn into TSA and have scope creep and will never get abolished. They will continue explaining the need for their existence to keep their jobs at the detriment to only travelers. The only way I could get behind any such program is a clear end date written into law.
- supertrope 5y ago
  MMR TDaP smallpox polio vaccines have been so successful that people don’t worry about these fearsome diseases. An ironic victim of their own success.
soneil 5y ago
That would seem like it's a stereotype for a reason, but at the beginning of all this mess, we had plenty of tourists (Ireland) who .. weren't malicious about it, they just ran on the assumption that restrictions were for everyone else. Like they're special, and obviously it's okay for them to bend the rules, as long as everyone else isn't. I've read of plenty of people visiting Iceland recently, where it's essentially test at the border then shelter in place until you get your results. And people quite happily listing off the spots they visited on their way to their hotel to shelter in place for the evening. And to be frank, Iceland does seem to be as accommodating as possible while understandably protective of their near-zero rates. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to reciprocate by acting as a guest should. I don't want to sound overly critical, but it's not just the rabid fanatics. I do get the impression plenty of perfectly reasonable American tourists believe they're a special case.
ghoward 5y ago
> The whole principle that you need to prove vaccination to be let into a country is not really new. Requiring this for experimental and not-yet-approved vaccines is new. (The COVID vaccines only have Emergency Use Authorizations.)

Pyramus 5y ago

> The whole principle that you need to prove vaccination to be let into a country is not really new. Exactly. Necessary and recommended vaccinations are one of the first things to check when planning a trip to destinations in Africa, South East Asia etc.

mirekrusin 5y ago
In many countries they don't accept kids to nursery without up to date vacinnation card.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  They also don’t allow you to collect welfare unless you and your kids have received your vaccinations (Australia).
- hwbehrens 5y ago
  This is true in the U.S. as well [0]. Some states allow for religious, philosophical, or medical exemptions; these exceptions are similar to the systems implemented in the Netherlands (religious [1]), Australia (philosophical [2]) or Germany (medical [1]). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy_in_the_United_States#School_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy_in_the_Unit... [1]: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1057/s41271-019-00163-8.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1057/s41271-019-001... [2]: https://www.sabin.org/sites/sabin.org/files/restricted/Salmon_etal_compulsory_imm_06.pdf https://www.sabin.org/sites/sabin.org/files/restricted/Salmo...
frankfrankfrank 5y ago
As someone with a vaccine passport issued by the US government and sponsored by the UN from the past, I would like to ask people to think beyond the pandemic and even the vaccine itself. People are clearly not following the logic to even just a few steps forward, let alone to its final conclusion. This is not about vaccines or even this or any other pandemic, it's about control and even engineering humans. It should not be hard to find the leaked ~2004 pentagon briefing on the use of vaccines to alter the minds of people to become less "extreme". You may think that is a good thing, because of course, we have all be conditioned that extreme = bad; but what happens when your position becomes "extreme", or you do not even realize you are not able to have certain thoughts or feelings because your mind has been altered to where you don't have such "extreme" thoughts as you would have otherwise had, e.g., maybe you want to be free to choose thing for yourself like an extremist. And yes, that pentagon briefing on the already then proven method to use vaccines to permanently alter brain functions exists and can be found if one looks for it.
h0nd 5y ago
I have travelled South East Asia for several years and never been asked to show any proof.

Mediterraneo10 5y ago

There are people in the travel community who oppose restrictions, sometimes hyperbolically so. For the last year, travel forums have been full of posts by people who intentionally chose destinations because not only would those country let them in, but mask-wearing and distancing wasn't really enforced there. With regard to need to prove vaccination, note that the WHO yellow-fever certificate was originally good for 10 years, and recently the WHO announced that it should be good for life. COVID passports are rather different in that they are passed on a QR code, so your certificate could be deemed invalid by your country’s authorities at any time. If you are traveling when that happens, they you might suddenly have to search for whatever new booster vaccine is required for onward travel, which might be a challenge if you are in the developing world.

CaptainZapp 5y ago
I have my Covid shots entered into the WHO yellow vaccination passport and assume that's good enough for the time being until a specific "QR code passport" is released. edited to add: Why should a civilized country just revoke certification once you're fully vaccinated?
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  When the new apps and digital certificates were announced, being able to revoke certification at any time was touted as one of their major advantages over traditional vaccine certificates. This way, if a new variant arises that preexisting vaccines don’t protect against, or if a state wants to enforce annual booster shots, they can just invalidate older certificates by updating the database entry to which the QR code points.
  - account42 5y ago
    Neither new variants and boosters are reasons for revokation as both are better served by information about the vaccine administered and a timestamp.
  - CaptainZapp 5y ago

lucideer 5y ago

> I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. I think this may vary by destination. I have no data (not sure if such data exists) but, anecdotally, living in Ireland, I get the impression that many do travel here at least. It may be that different destinations hold different draws (& I'm told the Irish-American community has diverged significantly in political leanings compared to Ireland/Europe)

h0nd 5y ago
I would love to see a fight between anti and pro covid fanatics.

6f8986c3 5y ago

> That's certainly a possibility if safety really is a concern. But I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. That is incredibly mean-spirited. And exactly what I have come to expect. I am fully vaccinated: measles, rubella, all the rest. I will not get the COVID shot. I never get the annual flu shot, either. I am skeptical of a highly experimental new treatment for a disease that isn't all that lethal. My body, my choice. If I die, that's my problem. You go ahead and get the shot. Your body, your choice. If you "trust the science", it'll give you immunity, and you don't need to worry about me at all. My attitude is mainstream. You just never listen to it, because you'd probably prefer that CNN or the NYT "interpret" it for you.

mittermayr 5y ago
"If I die, that's my problem." — if it were that easy, I'd be fully on board with you. I am not a fan of being told what I should be doing. In a society (like they say, no man is an island), however, it's not always that clear cut. Once you're infected, the disease does not only affect you and your body. You pass it on to others, you may have an unexpected reaction (which can now be said with quite some certainty, is at the very last the same or worse than whatever the vaccine would do to you) and that reaction means you may use up unexpected resources provided by society. If you live on a farm out in the desert all by yourself, don't need a doctor or hospital, and end up dying or being fine without other people affected, then sure, you do you. That I fully support. Seeing you post here in HackerNews, I'd guess you'd actually enjoy reading up (and are qualified to understand) on mRNA technology, including the Pfizer "disassembly" for it on GitHub. In terms of your attitude being mainstream, that'll depend on how many people end up getting the vaccine. That sort of thing tends to change quickly (in both ways).
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  > You pass it on to others Those "others" have spent the past five years screaming at me and threatening me. I stopped caring about or listening to them a long time ago.

slumdev 5y ago

> I'd wager that the average American anti Covid fanatic (the sort: Masks are fascism! It's like what the nazis did with the jews!) is not really the kind of person travelling the world. You'd be wrong. I've received more vaccines than 99.99% of the people you meet. I visit the doctor and get every jab that's recommended before every international trip (along with documentation for my prescriptions in case I'm questioned about them at a border,) but I will not receive any of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines until they are adequately tested. Adequate testing takes about a decade. I'm not really concerned about their efficacy, but anyone who tells you that their long-term safety is already established is lying to you.

RspecMAuthortah 5y ago
Not sure why you are downvoted. Health officials in US have done a phenomenal job showing how incompetent they were during this crisis. From initial downplay, then the mask fiasco, then trying to covering up the lab leak hypothesis, and of course politicizing the vaccine release timeline, they have blood on their hands. Then to say we need to blindly trust them on what they are saying on safety profile of the vaccine, its completely crazy. And through it all they never said we are sorry. I will never trust US Health Authorities anymore. Period.
- guitarbill 5y ago
  Maybe because saying "Adequate testing takes about a decade" is kinda BS - maybe in poster's opinion that's what "adequate" means. Realistically, the vaccine just has to be safer than getting Covid and it's long-term effects. Because we've seen in most Western nations that not getting Covid doesn't work in general. > I will never trust US Health Authorities anymore It's a shame some of their mistakes have eroded trust, and for what it's worth, I think easing masking requirements for vaccinated people was rash. But: > then trying to covering up the lab leak hypothesis, and of course politicizing the vaccine release timeline, they have blood on their hands. Come on. With all due respect, the lab leak hypothesis does not change the fact Covid exists now and we all have to deal with it, and I'm not even sure what "politicizing the vaccine release timeline" even means, or how a vaccine rollout better than Europe (so far) means they have blood on their hands. There is for sure some politics involved, which can be seen between the different approaches between the administrations. But that just points to factors outside health officials. So what about other countries then? Are they equally untrustworthy? And with all the vaccinations given so far, the safety profile of some vaccines (Pfizer/BioNTech) seems very good (compared to AZ, which is still not bad). At this point, data exists on the short term effects and blind trust is not necessary. On the long term, who knows? But you'd be in the same boat as millions of other people if there were wide-spread effects. If not, then it'd be like cancer or car accidents. Shit does sometimes happen, and often it's out of our control.

hervature 5y ago

As someone who has my yellow vaccine passport from the WHO because I travel to South America, I disagree with this sentiment. I view this move by the EU more akin to TSA than the yellow fever vaccine. I believe it will turn into strictly an annoyance to travelers. The premise of TSA was straightforward response to a bad thing that occurred and turned into a useless beast and these programs appear to have the same fingerprints. For example, what is different now than before when we didn't require proof of seasonal flu shot (or any vaccine for that matter)? Are we admitting this was a mistake? If so, then why just COVID? Add MMR, DTaP, and seasonal flu to the list. Is this a temporary program until COVID-19 is sufficiently vaccinated against? If so, why is this not the first thing mentioned? What about new variants of the disease? Will we need booster shots every year? If so, then we've already significantly diverged from the yellow fever program. If this is only COVID-19, then why even bother with the program? Inevitably, I believe the program will turn into TSA and have scope creep and will never get abolished. They will continue explaining the need for their existence to keep their jobs at the detriment to only travelers. The only way I could get behind any such program is a clear end date written into law.

supertrope 5y ago
MMR TDaP smallpox polio vaccines have been so successful that people don’t worry about these fearsome diseases. An ironic victim of their own success.

soneil 5y ago

That would seem like it's a stereotype for a reason, but at the beginning of all this mess, we had plenty of tourists (Ireland) who .. weren't malicious about it, they just ran on the assumption that restrictions were for everyone else. Like they're special, and obviously it's okay for them to bend the rules, as long as everyone else isn't. I've read of plenty of people visiting Iceland recently, where it's essentially test at the border then shelter in place until you get your results. And people quite happily listing off the spots they visited on their way to their hotel to shelter in place for the evening. And to be frank, Iceland does seem to be as accommodating as possible while understandably protective of their near-zero rates. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to reciprocate by acting as a guest should. I don't want to sound overly critical, but it's not just the rabid fanatics. I do get the impression plenty of perfectly reasonable American tourists believe they're a special case.

ghoward 5y ago

> The whole principle that you need to prove vaccination to be let into a country is not really new. Requiring this for experimental and not-yet-approved vaccines is new. (The COVID vaccines only have Emergency Use Authorizations.)