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"This article has been sponsored by Elon Musk". Its not even clear how we are supposed to produce the necessary amounts of electricity if a significant amount

"This article has been sponsored by Elon Musk". Its not even clear how we are supposed to produce the necessary amounts of electricity if a significant amount of cars are EVs. This feels like it has been written for the upper class, ignoring the reality of 80% of the people :-)

syshum 5y ago
We will do it with "green energy" using "green technology" in the new "green economy" duh.... /s
- mlang23 5y ago
  Yeah yeah. And I get downvoted for saying the glaringly obvious. Oh well, I can take that and laugh :-)
hannob 5y ago
The reality of 80% of the people is that they don't have a car.
- Traster 5y ago
  Actually the majority of households in the uk own at least 1 car and a there are over 35 million cars and 5 million vans in the uk.
helloguillecl 5y ago
I think you are ignoring the fact that we can produce extraordinary amounts of electricity from sources that were not available at economic scale 10 years ago. A solar farm is capable of producing 350 Mwh per year/per acre and it takes 18 kwh to power a Tesla for a 100km ride [1], so a single acre of solar power can produce enough energy for 19,000 of those rides, or power 190 cars (10.000 km per year) just by putting a bit more than the roof of their parking lots in solar cells. Furthermore, people do want to have their own car, and they are going to become the more affordable than their ICE counterparts and the polluting and flammable oil they need. [1] https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/european-union-energy-label https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/european-union-energy-la...
- StavrosK 5y ago
  I can't begin to tell you how excited the thought that I can have my car mostly powered from solar panels on the garage roof makes me.
  - helloguillecl 5y ago
    Yeah, like, it sounds too good to be true. People like to think you are incredulous for believing that it might be possible. Yet, it will be a reality that will change the world.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      I don't think it's that far-fetched, people are already installing solar panels (and have been for a while), it's just that now you'll have a much closer need. Hell, you'll probably even be able to use your car's battery as storage for your energy needs overnight, so you charge the car during the day and power your fridge/TV from it during the night (assuming you don't need to go somewhere in the morning). Pretty damn exciting.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      > Yet, it will be a reality that will change the world. Yeaaaah, I kinda think smartphones were bigger change than this. It's nice, but not a flying or self driving. Just different, cheaper source of energy. It does not enable anything new, other than charge.
      - helloguillecl 5y ago
        For you, who probably are energy rich already, and can afford as much fuel as he needs, like most of us in the developed-ish world. Think of someone in a village in Africa.
  - solresol 5y ago
    It was fun for the first few days and then you get kind of used to it. But what never gets dull is laughing at people paying to fill their cars with liquid explosives.
StavrosK 5y ago
Your comment kind of assumes that tomorrow every car in existence will turn into an EV. If you realize that it will actually be a more gradual process, the question actually becomes "but who will provide supply for a thing that is in such demand?!", and then, well, you know.
thirdvect0r 5y ago
More nuclear reactors would solve the problem best
- adamcstephens 5y ago
  Given the time it takes to build a nuclear reactor, this is a path we should have started 15 years ago.
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    Correct. And what is the second best time to start down that path?
leoedin 5y ago
We already have capacity for that much electricity generation. We'll have to be careful about managing the peak usage - smart chargers which can be remotely cut off will probably be mandatory. As an example, the UK grid yesterday saw a peak of about 30 GW, but was sitting at 20 GW for most of the night. (https://gridwatch.co.uk/ https://gridwatch.co.uk/). That's about 70 GWh of overnight capacity that could have been used (the grid has to be sized for peak loads). The average car in the UK drives about 7000 miles a year (https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-and-analysis/ https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-...). An average EV might get 3 miles per kWh. So the average car, on an average night, needs 20 miles of range - which is about 6.4kWh. Our grid excess capacity of 70 GWh means we can charge just under 11 million cars before we're using more than our current peak electricity demand. The UK grid is designed for more capacity than todays peak, though. The maximum delivered power in the last year was 47.275 GW. If we maximised the grid at that level all year we'd be adding an additional 17 GW compared to yesterday. That's 408 GWh, or enough power for an additional 63.7 million cars (on top of our 11 million) - a total of 74.7 million average cars. The UK currently has around 32.9 million registered cars. There is undoubtedly going to be hotspots which need more work, but overall the additional load of electric cars (with smart chargers which can shed load if needed) is within the limits of the current grid and generation capacity.
- cataflam 5y ago
  From your first link, isn't a lot of that difference between 30 GW peak and 20 GW at night due to solar? It seems to provide about 9 GW during the day, that removes most of your estimated 70 GWh of extra overnight capacity (unless I'm reading it wrong).
- ppf 5y ago
  > That's about 70 GWh of overnight capacity that could have been used...Our grid excess capacity of 70 GWh means we can charge just under 11 million cars before we're using more than our current peak electricity demand. You've ignored all losses. Transmission and distribution losses, the latter of which are worse for low-voltage customers (ie, domestic use, and is over 10%), total around 15% for domestic use. As well as that, charger loss is around 15%. Adding all that up, a car that needs 20 miles at 333 Wh/mile needs 9kWh of generated supply power, or barely 8 million cars (assuming this power is actually available). There is also the obvious problem that there is no solar availabe at night, which makes up a relatively large percentage of the UK's energy mix (over 8GW right now, as I just looked). >The maximum delivered power in the last year was 47.275 GW How much of that peak power was from peaking plants, for example, the 1.8GW pumped hydro storage at Dinorwic? A huge part of the problems with EVs are related to unrealistic and misleading estimates. Please be careful with the maths.
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
To address your 3rd point (can't talk about the first 2 ones), it seems very Western-centric. If you go to a poorer countries you'd see old cars imported from Europe (or Japan - in the eastern parts of Russia you see a lot of right hand drive cars!) which are there because they're no longer economical to run in their home countries. Also trucks and buses. Without regulations or any sort of push, these vehicles will probably keep chugging along for another few decades. A benevolent leading country like the USA that seem to only exist in myths and legends of the past would probably push the poor countries by coupling economic aid with environmental regulations, and then selling them "new and clean" vehicles made in Detroit. Maybe China will step up, although of course we in the West attribute their actions to wanting something in return, unlike the benevolent USA. ;) Let's not talk about the EU government, which is just a stupid club of paper pushers...
truth_ 5y ago
In a PR quote, some bigshot from a conventional car company said, "We will produce cars for the millions instead those that cost millions". Let's see how far they go.

syshum 5y ago

We will do it with "green energy" using "green technology" in the new "green economy" duh.... /s

mlang23 5y ago
Yeah yeah. And I get downvoted for saying the glaringly obvious. Oh well, I can take that and laugh :-)

hannob 5y ago

The reality of 80% of the people is that they don't have a car.

Traster 5y ago
Actually the majority of households in the uk own at least 1 car and a there are over 35 million cars and 5 million vans in the uk.

helloguillecl 5y ago

I think you are ignoring the fact that we can produce extraordinary amounts of electricity from sources that were not available at economic scale 10 years ago. A solar farm is capable of producing 350 Mwh per year/per acre and it takes 18 kwh to power a Tesla for a 100km ride [1], so a single acre of solar power can produce enough energy for 19,000 of those rides, or power 190 cars (10.000 km per year) just by putting a bit more than the roof of their parking lots in solar cells. Furthermore, people do want to have their own car, and they are going to become the more affordable than their ICE counterparts and the polluting and flammable oil they need. [1] https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/european-union-energy-label https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/european-union-energy-la...

StavrosK 5y ago
I can't begin to tell you how excited the thought that I can have my car mostly powered from solar panels on the garage roof makes me.
- helloguillecl 5y ago
  Yeah, like, it sounds too good to be true. People like to think you are incredulous for believing that it might be possible. Yet, it will be a reality that will change the world.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    I don't think it's that far-fetched, people are already installing solar panels (and have been for a while), it's just that now you'll have a much closer need. Hell, you'll probably even be able to use your car's battery as storage for your energy needs overnight, so you charge the car during the day and power your fridge/TV from it during the night (assuming you don't need to go somewhere in the morning). Pretty damn exciting.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    > Yet, it will be a reality that will change the world. Yeaaaah, I kinda think smartphones were bigger change than this. It's nice, but not a flying or self driving. Just different, cheaper source of energy. It does not enable anything new, other than charge.
    - helloguillecl 5y ago
      For you, who probably are energy rich already, and can afford as much fuel as he needs, like most of us in the developed-ish world. Think of someone in a village in Africa.
- solresol 5y ago
  It was fun for the first few days and then you get kind of used to it. But what never gets dull is laughing at people paying to fill their cars with liquid explosives.

StavrosK 5y ago

Your comment kind of assumes that tomorrow every car in existence will turn into an EV. If you realize that it will actually be a more gradual process, the question actually becomes "but who will provide supply for a thing that is in such demand?!", and then, well, you know.

thirdvect0r 5y ago

More nuclear reactors would solve the problem best

adamcstephens 5y ago
Given the time it takes to build a nuclear reactor, this is a path we should have started 15 years ago.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  Correct. And what is the second best time to start down that path?

leoedin 5y ago

We already have capacity for that much electricity generation. We'll have to be careful about managing the peak usage - smart chargers which can be remotely cut off will probably be mandatory. As an example, the UK grid yesterday saw a peak of about 30 GW, but was sitting at 20 GW for most of the night. (https://gridwatch.co.uk/ https://gridwatch.co.uk/). That's about 70 GWh of overnight capacity that could have been used (the grid has to be sized for peak loads). The average car in the UK drives about 7000 miles a year (https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-and-analysis/ https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-...). An average EV might get 3 miles per kWh. So the average car, on an average night, needs 20 miles of range - which is about 6.4kWh. Our grid excess capacity of 70 GWh means we can charge just under 11 million cars before we're using more than our current peak electricity demand. The UK grid is designed for more capacity than todays peak, though. The maximum delivered power in the last year was 47.275 GW. If we maximised the grid at that level all year we'd be adding an additional 17 GW compared to yesterday. That's 408 GWh, or enough power for an additional 63.7 million cars (on top of our 11 million) - a total of 74.7 million average cars. The UK currently has around 32.9 million registered cars. There is undoubtedly going to be hotspots which need more work, but overall the additional load of electric cars (with smart chargers which can shed load if needed) is within the limits of the current grid and generation capacity.

cataflam 5y ago
From your first link, isn't a lot of that difference between 30 GW peak and 20 GW at night due to solar? It seems to provide about 9 GW during the day, that removes most of your estimated 70 GWh of extra overnight capacity (unless I'm reading it wrong).
ppf 5y ago
> That's about 70 GWh of overnight capacity that could have been used...Our grid excess capacity of 70 GWh means we can charge just under 11 million cars before we're using more than our current peak electricity demand. You've ignored all losses. Transmission and distribution losses, the latter of which are worse for low-voltage customers (ie, domestic use, and is over 10%), total around 15% for domestic use. As well as that, charger loss is around 15%. Adding all that up, a car that needs 20 miles at 333 Wh/mile needs 9kWh of generated supply power, or barely 8 million cars (assuming this power is actually available). There is also the obvious problem that there is no solar availabe at night, which makes up a relatively large percentage of the UK's energy mix (over 8GW right now, as I just looked). >The maximum delivered power in the last year was 47.275 GW How much of that peak power was from peaking plants, for example, the 1.8GW pumped hydro storage at Dinorwic? A huge part of the problems with EVs are related to unrealistic and misleading estimates. Please be careful with the maths.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

To address your 3rd point (can't talk about the first 2 ones), it seems very Western-centric. If you go to a poorer countries you'd see old cars imported from Europe (or Japan - in the eastern parts of Russia you see a lot of right hand drive cars!) which are there because they're no longer economical to run in their home countries. Also trucks and buses. Without regulations or any sort of push, these vehicles will probably keep chugging along for another few decades. A benevolent leading country like the USA that seem to only exist in myths and legends of the past would probably push the poor countries by coupling economic aid with environmental regulations, and then selling them "new and clean" vehicles made in Detroit. Maybe China will step up, although of course we in the West attribute their actions to wanting something in return, unlike the benevolent USA. ;) Let's not talk about the EU government, which is just a stupid club of paper pushers...

truth_ 5y ago

In a PR quote, some bigshot from a conventional car company said, "We will produce cars for the millions instead those that cost millions". Let's see how far they go.