5 ms·

> Under freedom You're confusing freedom with capitalism. Understandable, since we need to spend 40+ hours a week to earn our "right" to shelter, survival and

by etripe 5y ago

> Under freedom You're confusing freedom with capitalism. Understandable, since we need to spend 40+ hours a week to earn our "right" to shelter, survival and general health. In other words: the right to exist and participate. That doesn't make us free - it makes us beholden to an employer if on the payroll, the market if self employed and the greater economic system in both cases. If we were truly free, we would only spend time doing things we thought were actually inherently valuable. For some of us, that would mean accumulating wealth. For a great many others, that would be the Star Trek kind of life about exploring, arts and discovery. Then again, that kind of freedom will perhaps be relegated to utopian dreams for a long time yet.

jinjin2 5y ago
The birds are free. Doesn’t mean they don’t have to work to feed themselves.
WalterBright 5y ago
> it makes us beholden to an employer Oh phooey. I've been an employer and employee many times. At no time was I "beholden" to my employer, and at no time were my employees "beholden" to me. It was a simple transaction - trading labor for money. Either party could (and sometimes did) walk away at any time for any reason they pleased. I've even been fired more than once. Didn't matter, I just got another job. No employee ever genuflected to me, either.
- etripe 5y ago
  > No employee ever genuflected to me You're arguing in bad faith by making a caricature out of my argument. Please don't. I meant there is a clear dependency, like in software. Your app isn't free of dependencies if it imports other packages. It needs them to function. There's vendor lock-in. > Either party could walk away This might have been true for you, but doesn't generalise well. Yes, in theory people can walk away. In practice, they're dependent on their employer for healthcare coverage, survival, general life stability... etc. It's not because you or I currently have a financial buffer and can survive stretches of unemployment that this is the case for the entire population. In case you missed it, a majority of Americans cannot afford a $500 dollar surprise expense out of pocket (0). Imagine you're a millennial with college debt in an area without a lot of jobs and analyse how free you really are to leave the one job you managed to get. How likely are you to get funding for a business? What's the tensile strength of your bootstraps? You're entitled to look at it as a simple transaction, but the distribution of leverage for most people is distinctly asymmetrical, especially in anti-union countries like the US. So are the legal advantages, political influence, legal accountability, etc when comparing companies to individuals. [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-500-emergency-expense/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50...
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > Yes, in theory people can walk away. In practice, they do, all the time, in every place I've ever worked, including min wage jobs. > they're dependent on their employer for healthcare coverage That's because of stupid government laws. Besides, if you leave you get COBRA for 18 months or something like that. > survival, Not in the US. Don't exaggerate. > general life stability... ?? > a majority of Americans cannot afford a $500 dollar surprise expense out of pocket (0). That doesn't mean they're poor. It's easy to have a quarter million dollar salary and spend 110% of it. > in an area without a lot of jobs Hop on the Bus, Gus. Go where the jobs are. My extended family moved all over the US for better jobs. Heck, I wound up in Seattle to get a better job. Cost me a couple hundred clams worth of gas driving my bucket of bolts there from Kansas. Heck, somehow the penniless migrants manage to travel all over the US to get work. > So are the legal advantages, political influence, legal accountability, etc when comparing companies to individuals. The courts are heavily biased in favor of the worker in legal disputes. And have you ever seen the press take the side of Amazon in any dispute with labor? Or any company?
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  No one is suggesting that you are physically trapped in the job with shackles, but to insinuate everyone is in a position where they can just 'walk away' from their job is disingenuous at best, downright ignorant of the world at worst. It's about the same level as 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps'.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Well, people I've employed walked away whenever they felt like it. > ignorant of the world I only speak of the US. Before the pandemic upended things, unemployment rates were very, very low in the US. That doesn't auger for employees being beholden to employers at all.
    - breakfastduck 5y ago
      You clearly speak for a very select set of people. Which is fine, but stop projecting that onto the vast majority who absolutely cannot walk away from work 'whenever they feel like it' if they've any sort of family or responsibilities. You're talking about the US and people not being beholden to employers - I'm sorry, but that is absolute nonsense for basically the entire working class.

by etripe 5y ago

jinjin2 5y ago

The birds are free. Doesn’t mean they don’t have to work to feed themselves.

WalterBright 5y ago

> it makes us beholden to an employer Oh phooey. I've been an employer and employee many times. At no time was I "beholden" to my employer, and at no time were my employees "beholden" to me. It was a simple transaction - trading labor for money. Either party could (and sometimes did) walk away at any time for any reason they pleased. I've even been fired more than once. Didn't matter, I just got another job. No employee ever genuflected to me, either.

etripe 5y ago
> No employee ever genuflected to me You're arguing in bad faith by making a caricature out of my argument. Please don't. I meant there is a clear dependency, like in software. Your app isn't free of dependencies if it imports other packages. It needs them to function. There's vendor lock-in. > Either party could walk away This might have been true for you, but doesn't generalise well. Yes, in theory people can walk away. In practice, they're dependent on their employer for healthcare coverage, survival, general life stability... etc. It's not because you or I currently have a financial buffer and can survive stretches of unemployment that this is the case for the entire population. In case you missed it, a majority of Americans cannot afford a $500 dollar surprise expense out of pocket (0). Imagine you're a millennial with college debt in an area without a lot of jobs and analyse how free you really are to leave the one job you managed to get. How likely are you to get funding for a business? What's the tensile strength of your bootstraps? You're entitled to look at it as a simple transaction, but the distribution of leverage for most people is distinctly asymmetrical, especially in anti-union countries like the US. So are the legal advantages, political influence, legal accountability, etc when comparing companies to individuals. [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-500-emergency-expense/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50...
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > Yes, in theory people can walk away. In practice, they do, all the time, in every place I've ever worked, including min wage jobs. > they're dependent on their employer for healthcare coverage That's because of stupid government laws. Besides, if you leave you get COBRA for 18 months or something like that. > survival, Not in the US. Don't exaggerate. > general life stability... ?? > a majority of Americans cannot afford a $500 dollar surprise expense out of pocket (0). That doesn't mean they're poor. It's easy to have a quarter million dollar salary and spend 110% of it. > in an area without a lot of jobs Hop on the Bus, Gus. Go where the jobs are. My extended family moved all over the US for better jobs. Heck, I wound up in Seattle to get a better job. Cost me a couple hundred clams worth of gas driving my bucket of bolts there from Kansas. Heck, somehow the penniless migrants manage to travel all over the US to get work. > So are the legal advantages, political influence, legal accountability, etc when comparing companies to individuals. The courts are heavily biased in favor of the worker in legal disputes. And have you ever seen the press take the side of Amazon in any dispute with labor? Or any company?
breakfastduck 5y ago
No one is suggesting that you are physically trapped in the job with shackles, but to insinuate everyone is in a position where they can just 'walk away' from their job is disingenuous at best, downright ignorant of the world at worst. It's about the same level as 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps'.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Well, people I've employed walked away whenever they felt like it. > ignorant of the world I only speak of the US. Before the pandemic upended things, unemployment rates were very, very low in the US. That doesn't auger for employees being beholden to employers at all.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    You clearly speak for a very select set of people. Which is fine, but stop projecting that onto the vast majority who absolutely cannot walk away from work 'whenever they feel like it' if they've any sort of family or responsibilities. You're talking about the US and people not being beholden to employers - I'm sorry, but that is absolute nonsense for basically the entire working class.