5 ms·

We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in mos

by ipatec 5y ago

We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. About half of the EU countries don't have eIDs. Also we're talking of less than 5% of EU population (some figures I've seen are close to 3%) working in a different EU country than their own. do we really need to implement such a system that comes with major risks? given that it benefits such a small percentage of people?

rpastuszak 5y ago
I agree, but you have to start somewhere though. As much as fixing the issue you mentioned would make eIDs more useful, having eIDs in the first place would give us more reasons to tackle this and similar problems.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Why do you have to start somewhere? Why is it a requirement to have eID? Because we can is not a reason. This is the same reason we have global warming. We can build gas burning cars, so we should, without thinking of the consequences. Of what use is eID, when no one can secure anything network connected? When all eID will be subverted, stolen, misused, making the same useless? And meanwhile, causing endless misery for those experiencing the loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse by foreign powers, and more. On top of this, I absolutely don't need it easier for a state to track me. Now every time I show my eID, the state gets pinged to validate it? No thanks!
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "This is the same reason we have global warming" Thats escalated quickly... "he loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse" You are like 15 years late to the party, you can easilly buy/scrape/find enough information to get credutcards in sone poor sucker's name from the facebook and experian data leaks.
mlok 5y ago
I would say that if you change a physical address it makes sense to be there in person to prove it. This could be seen as a kind of security/verification feature.
- telesilla 5y ago
  Some countries confirm it by sending a document to the address and you must respond with the provided code. Seems more secure than being present in an office?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  I was recently in person to confirm my address in UK and they made a typo and placed me on an address that doesn't exist
- thequux 5y ago
  Belgium checks this by sending a police officer to your address at a time you're likely to be home (~7:00 on a weekday evening, Saturday morning, or the like), regardless of whether you changed your address at town hall or online. The only reason more places don't introduce such features is that it's all done on the municipal level and not all municipalities have the same priorities.
eecc 5y ago
Well since it's a greenfield project for many countries it might make sense to build a continent-wide solution rather than let each country cobble together their own incompatible platform? Besides, it's not only for intra-EU Digital Nomads but also for business operations beyond national borders; reducing the overhead improves accessibility from the less developed countries to richer markets.
bbarnett 5y ago
And there you have it ; risks. No one on the planet has been able to ever, and I mean ever, lock down data when connected to the internet, from hacking. Ever. If you have not been hacked when specifically targeted, it only means your data is not worth the cost/profit. Pre-zero days abound, firewalls will be bypassed, and worst? People will be bribed, coerced, scammed, tricked. There are only two options: 1.. Absolutely zero Internet access for anyone working on said computers. No mobile phones allowed in the building, no machine with internet access in the building, faraday cage around the entire building, etc... Yes, no email. Nothing. 2. Paper And of course, the above with physical access controls, and scans / searches. The real fix for all identity theft, is to make it a crime, and a serious one, including mandatory jail time for all CxO level execs (on the premise of gross negligence) for obtaining any data on individuals via illicit means. And that has to be world wide.
toyg 5y ago
The point is not just what is there today, but what we want for tomorrow. In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again. Something like 1% to 2% move each year to a different state [0], which means in 10 years more than 10% of people will have done that. Some cross state borders multiple times in their lives. This is what we want to achieve, because it fuels economic growth and removes obstacles to happiness. (It's also, in a way, a restoration of what we had pre-Nation-State, when people were basically free to settle anywhere they wanted; but that's beside the point). Making the process of moving across the continent as smooth as possible is a Good Thing. I would also move a point on terminology: > working in a different EU country than their own People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark - I think it's important that we move on from XIX-century nationalistic terminology if we want to achieve progress.) [0] https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/how-often-and-why-americans-move/ https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/how-often-and-why-ameri...
- foldr 5y ago
  >People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark It doesn't really succeed as a pedantic remark, because 'their own' doesn't denote ownership. For example, here is a sentence in a BBC news article that I found by googling: "Even his own boss said Andrew Gilligan, the BBC reporter at the heart of the Hutton Inquiry, 'paints in primary colours rather than something more subtle'". This sentence does not suggest that Andrew Gilligan owns his boss.
- pjerem 5y ago
  > In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again. European Union is not a federal government like the USA but a union of independent countries. In Europe it’s normal to live your entire life in the country you were born. Of course you can move wherever you want whenever you want but it’s never needed because there is 99% odds that your state have what you need (specific university, companies offices …) Since Europe have really poor democratic control and power structure as of today, we are far from a federal Europe. Even European policies like RGPD are always enforced locally at country level, there is no such thing as European government.
jkukul 5y ago
> Also we're talking of less than 5% of EU population I agree, at first glance it seems like the global approach is an overkill. I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem though. Is the global eID/eWallet an overkill, because we're already at the peak of the within-EU movement of people? Or, is the burden of switching countries too big and this prevents people from freely moving within the Union when looking for opportunities? IMO it's the latter.
- ipatec 5y ago
  I agree the burden of switching countries is too big. But as a share of that burden the beaurocracy of getting a new residence would be somewhere at the bottom. The biggest burden of switching to a new country within the EU would be language, culture (there's a lot of things in common but as many differences too) and family/friends. I did change country 2x and my biggest worry has always been first securing a new job. I never cared about the beaurocracy because I knew it will be sorted out sooner or later once I move.
  - martimarkov 5y ago
    For me has always been the admin part. I don’t care particularly about the job and culture. I’m actually excited to try something new. It’s just a lot of documents to move and I’m bad at using paper. :D
sammorrowdrums 5y ago
The risks are significant, but it doesn't logically follow that by removing a barrier you are only helping the people that were already OK with getting over the barrier. I think the issue is that there are still a lot of hurdles that regarding residence, tax and local services that will need to become easier still for this to have a large impact. Language and local friends / family connections are still significant barriers, but I guess the EU could eventually resolve most other issues. A big one would be making tax returns for partial years in different countries easier, which in fairness having an EU wide eID does help with. Requiring and allowing accounts to offer full EU coverage would also probably help. The friction needs to be below tolerable levels for enough people to see the full benefit manifest. As anecdata if I had to get VISA and only temporary right to remain I would probably have not moved to Netherlands, and it has genuinely stopped me considering moving to America. As a British / Irish citizen I'm acutely aware that there are now new barriers to non-eu British citizens, and that'll impact how many people move around Europe from UK. Especially people who cannot afford to navigate the additional costs and bureaucracy, or who are scared of risking family security with temporary stays etc.
bojan 5y ago
How many people in Belgium used an eID, or thought it's a good idea, in the first year? Were there privacy concerns, etc? I assume people were asking the same things as you are now. In the Netherlands you can change your address in every municipality, using our DigiD system. Nowadays you can also use the European system to log in. And don't forget, while 3% may sound insignificant, it is still over 13 million people.
Jiocus 5y ago
> We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. I see. Here in Finland electronic services has been widely implemented and very successfully so. I haven't been required to show up in person for anything in quite some time (altough I sometimes have). Government bodies are also very keen to inform about and push for the e-services available. Especially in these pandemic times, which I believe further incented the long tail - if there was one - to catch up and offer self-service online. I belive Sweden is as far if not further than Finland, but I wouldn't know(!) because the ID and eID was a hassle I didn't cope with the last time I lived there ;) Thing were fine anyway, "because EU, Nordics".
- lowdose 5y ago
  Finland is also the only country that made rational choices in the setup of frequency auctions. Maybe better infrastructure delivers superior digital implementation of government structure because actual equal access to internet speed is guaranteed.
- dariosalvi78 5y ago
  In Sweden the digitalisation of services is quite advanced, although there are still many things that you need to do via post. I cannot compare with Finland, but I can compare with Spain and the UK where I have lived and worked and probably Sweden is one or two steps ahead. The only gotcha is that you need to be inside the system and have an active BankId, otherwise you're a pariah.
tchalla 5y ago
> Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. I don't see why this should be done online. The registration/change of address requires a proof. Many services like bank accounts, pensions, tv tax etc. are linked to one's registration address. A one time physical presence (or a similar variant) is a reasonable tradeoff between verification and convenience. You create a meaningful hurdle and make people liable for their statements. Convenience is not the only metric to decide what should be done online.
- JW_00000 5y ago
  In Belgium changing your official address is actually a three-step process: 1. You notify your new local council of the change of address. 2. A police officer visits your new home to check whether you actually live there. 3. Your official address is updated in the government's records and on the ID card. Step 2 takes place in your home; step 3 requires you to physically go to the town hall because the information on the eID card needs to be updated. But step 1 should be doable online but isn't in every municipality. However, I think this is more a problem of every municipality doing this on their own rather than using a shared system. Also, the frustrating part is not that you need to go to the town hall, but that it has very limited and inconvenient opening hours and (in larger places) often long waiting times.
  - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
    Sounds like make work for cops to me.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
This will change very soon depending on the region. Burgerprofiel has recently gone live ( because of Covid) after a long beta. It was used for your "vaccinatie aanvraag". Wallonia and Brussels are long from ready.

by ipatec 5y ago

rpastuszak 5y ago

I agree, but you have to start somewhere though. As much as fixing the issue you mentioned would make eIDs more useful, having eIDs in the first place would give us more reasons to tackle this and similar problems.

bbarnett 5y ago
Why do you have to start somewhere? Why is it a requirement to have eID? Because we can is not a reason. This is the same reason we have global warming. We can build gas burning cars, so we should, without thinking of the consequences. Of what use is eID, when no one can secure anything network connected? When all eID will be subverted, stolen, misused, making the same useless? And meanwhile, causing endless misery for those experiencing the loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse by foreign powers, and more. On top of this, I absolutely don't need it easier for a state to track me. Now every time I show my eID, the state gets pinged to validate it? No thanks!
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "This is the same reason we have global warming" Thats escalated quickly... "he loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse" You are like 15 years late to the party, you can easilly buy/scrape/find enough information to get credutcards in sone poor sucker's name from the facebook and experian data leaks.

mlok 5y ago

I would say that if you change a physical address it makes sense to be there in person to prove it. This could be seen as a kind of security/verification feature.

telesilla 5y ago
Some countries confirm it by sending a document to the address and you must respond with the provided code. Seems more secure than being present in an office?
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
I was recently in person to confirm my address in UK and they made a typo and placed me on an address that doesn't exist
thequux 5y ago
Belgium checks this by sending a police officer to your address at a time you're likely to be home (~7:00 on a weekday evening, Saturday morning, or the like), regardless of whether you changed your address at town hall or online. The only reason more places don't introduce such features is that it's all done on the municipal level and not all municipalities have the same priorities.

eecc 5y ago

Well since it's a greenfield project for many countries it might make sense to build a continent-wide solution rather than let each country cobble together their own incompatible platform? Besides, it's not only for intra-EU Digital Nomads but also for business operations beyond national borders; reducing the overhead improves accessibility from the less developed countries to richer markets.

bbarnett 5y ago

And there you have it ; risks. No one on the planet has been able to ever, and I mean ever, lock down data when connected to the internet, from hacking. Ever. If you have not been hacked when specifically targeted, it only means your data is not worth the cost/profit. Pre-zero days abound, firewalls will be bypassed, and worst? People will be bribed, coerced, scammed, tricked. There are only two options: 1.. Absolutely zero Internet access for anyone working on said computers. No mobile phones allowed in the building, no machine with internet access in the building, faraday cage around the entire building, etc... Yes, no email. Nothing. 2. Paper And of course, the above with physical access controls, and scans / searches. The real fix for all identity theft, is to make it a crime, and a serious one, including mandatory jail time for all CxO level execs (on the premise of gross negligence) for obtaining any data on individuals via illicit means. And that has to be world wide.

toyg 5y ago

The point is not just what is there today, but what we want for tomorrow. In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again. Something like 1% to 2% move each year to a different state [0], which means in 10 years more than 10% of people will have done that. Some cross state borders multiple times in their lives. This is what we want to achieve, because it fuels economic growth and removes obstacles to happiness. (It's also, in a way, a restoration of what we had pre-Nation-State, when people were basically free to settle anywhere they wanted; but that's beside the point). Making the process of moving across the continent as smooth as possible is a Good Thing. I would also move a point on terminology: > working in a different EU country than their own People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark - I think it's important that we move on from XIX-century nationalistic terminology if we want to achieve progress.) [0] https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/how-often-and-why-americans-move/ https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/how-often-and-why-ameri...

foldr 5y ago
>People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark It doesn't really succeed as a pedantic remark, because 'their own' doesn't denote ownership. For example, here is a sentence in a BBC news article that I found by googling: "Even his own boss said Andrew Gilligan, the BBC reporter at the heart of the Hutton Inquiry, 'paints in primary colours rather than something more subtle'". This sentence does not suggest that Andrew Gilligan owns his boss.
pjerem 5y ago
> In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again. European Union is not a federal government like the USA but a union of independent countries. In Europe it’s normal to live your entire life in the country you were born. Of course you can move wherever you want whenever you want but it’s never needed because there is 99% odds that your state have what you need (specific university, companies offices …) Since Europe have really poor democratic control and power structure as of today, we are far from a federal Europe. Even European policies like RGPD are always enforced locally at country level, there is no such thing as European government.

jkukul 5y ago

> Also we're talking of less than 5% of EU population I agree, at first glance it seems like the global approach is an overkill. I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem though. Is the global eID/eWallet an overkill, because we're already at the peak of the within-EU movement of people? Or, is the burden of switching countries too big and this prevents people from freely moving within the Union when looking for opportunities? IMO it's the latter.

ipatec 5y ago
I agree the burden of switching countries is too big. But as a share of that burden the beaurocracy of getting a new residence would be somewhere at the bottom. The biggest burden of switching to a new country within the EU would be language, culture (there's a lot of things in common but as many differences too) and family/friends. I did change country 2x and my biggest worry has always been first securing a new job. I never cared about the beaurocracy because I knew it will be sorted out sooner or later once I move.
- martimarkov 5y ago
  For me has always been the admin part. I don’t care particularly about the job and culture. I’m actually excited to try something new. It’s just a lot of documents to move and I’m bad at using paper. :D

sammorrowdrums 5y ago

The risks are significant, but it doesn't logically follow that by removing a barrier you are only helping the people that were already OK with getting over the barrier. I think the issue is that there are still a lot of hurdles that regarding residence, tax and local services that will need to become easier still for this to have a large impact. Language and local friends / family connections are still significant barriers, but I guess the EU could eventually resolve most other issues. A big one would be making tax returns for partial years in different countries easier, which in fairness having an EU wide eID does help with. Requiring and allowing accounts to offer full EU coverage would also probably help. The friction needs to be below tolerable levels for enough people to see the full benefit manifest. As anecdata if I had to get VISA and only temporary right to remain I would probably have not moved to Netherlands, and it has genuinely stopped me considering moving to America. As a British / Irish citizen I'm acutely aware that there are now new barriers to non-eu British citizens, and that'll impact how many people move around Europe from UK. Especially people who cannot afford to navigate the additional costs and bureaucracy, or who are scared of risking family security with temporary stays etc.

bojan 5y ago

How many people in Belgium used an eID, or thought it's a good idea, in the first year? Were there privacy concerns, etc? I assume people were asking the same things as you are now. In the Netherlands you can change your address in every municipality, using our DigiD system. Nowadays you can also use the European system to log in. And don't forget, while 3% may sound insignificant, it is still over 13 million people.

Jiocus 5y ago

> We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. I see. Here in Finland electronic services has been widely implemented and very successfully so. I haven't been required to show up in person for anything in quite some time (altough I sometimes have). Government bodies are also very keen to inform about and push for the e-services available. Especially in these pandemic times, which I believe further incented the long tail - if there was one - to catch up and offer self-service online. I belive Sweden is as far if not further than Finland, but I wouldn't know(!) because the ID and eID was a hassle I didn't cope with the last time I lived there ;) Thing were fine anyway, "because EU, Nordics".

lowdose 5y ago
Finland is also the only country that made rational choices in the setup of frequency auctions. Maybe better infrastructure delivers superior digital implementation of government structure because actual equal access to internet speed is guaranteed.
dariosalvi78 5y ago
In Sweden the digitalisation of services is quite advanced, although there are still many things that you need to do via post. I cannot compare with Finland, but I can compare with Spain and the UK where I have lived and worked and probably Sweden is one or two steps ahead. The only gotcha is that you need to be inside the system and have an active BankId, otherwise you're a pariah.

tchalla 5y ago

> Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. I don't see why this should be done online. The registration/change of address requires a proof. Many services like bank accounts, pensions, tv tax etc. are linked to one's registration address. A one time physical presence (or a similar variant) is a reasonable tradeoff between verification and convenience. You create a meaningful hurdle and make people liable for their statements. Convenience is not the only metric to decide what should be done online.

JW_00000 5y ago
In Belgium changing your official address is actually a three-step process: 1. You notify your new local council of the change of address. 2. A police officer visits your new home to check whether you actually live there. 3. Your official address is updated in the government's records and on the ID card. Step 2 takes place in your home; step 3 requires you to physically go to the town hall because the information on the eID card needs to be updated. But step 1 should be doable online but isn't in every municipality. However, I think this is more a problem of every municipality doing this on their own rather than using a shared system. Also, the frustrating part is not that you need to go to the town hall, but that it has very limited and inconvenient opening hours and (in larger places) often long waiting times.
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  Sounds like make work for cops to me.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

This will change very soon depending on the region. Burgerprofiel has recently gone live ( because of Covid) after a long beta. It was used for your "vaccinatie aanvraag". Wallonia and Brussels are long from ready.