5 ms·

> The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Emphasis here is on the past tense. There are several reasons to challenge

> The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Emphasis here is on the past tense. There are several reasons to challenge this: 1. The USA had (and still has) unprecedented resources per population. Why is your claim not still the case? 2. Immigrants tend to be people with the means to immigrate. That's rarely people in relative poverty, unless you intended to mean slaves.

jfk13 5y ago
In the past, a lot of (non-slave) people immigrated to the USA precisely because they were impoverished -- for example, Irish fleeing the Great Famine, among many others. > "Give me your tired, your poor, / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, / The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." Whether those words are as appropriate today may be another matter, of course.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Something like 100,000 people per month are flooding into America via the southern border. What are they fleeing from?
  - mellavora 5y ago
    crime fueled by America's War on Drugs.
  - jfk13 5y ago
    I'm curious if that's a figure for the number who enter and remain long-term, or does it include those who are quickly detained and expelled? I.e. does the Mexican border account for a million-plus annual increase in overall US population?
- teachingassist 5y ago
  > for example, Irish fleeing the Great Famine, I understand this example to be of historical note because it was exceptional. Many people came over for the promise of farmland or gold or something that they could capitalise on.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    They came because they were poor. For a fictionalized account of Swedish immigrants, see Moberg's novel "The Emigrants". You might dismiss it as fiction, but the preface writes: "To ensure the verisimilitude of his story, Moberg did extensive historical research in both Sweden and the United States. He studied county records in Smaland and read many collections of letters that immigrants in America had sent to relatives in Sweden during the nineteenth Century. His studies also included trips to the Maritime Museum in Gothenburg. This research gave him a record of living conditions in nineteenth-century Sweden and a feel for life aboard sailing vessels in the days when emigration had not yet become an industry backed by large steamship companies."
WalterBright 5y ago
1. The USSR had (and has) much more resources per population. Japan achieved great wealth with insignificant natural resources. 2. Middle class and rich people rarely immigrate. It's the poor that do. Did you know that the reason the Titanic was built was to en-masse ship poor people to the US? The first class bit was mostly window dressing. The money was to be made by cramming poor people in below decks. In colonial times, America was populated mostly by people escaping prosecution, indentured servants, sons who weren't first born and were not going to inherit anything, teens whose parents could not support them, etc. The Chinese and Japanese people came to escape poverty. Furthermore, South America was and is rich in resources, but it remains poor. Nothing like the US happened there.
- teachingassist 5y ago
  > Did you know that the reason the Titanic was built was to en-masse ship poor people to the US? The first class bit was mostly window dressing. Third-class passage was £8, approximately $1000 in today's currency, i.e. more expensive than an equivalent trans-atlantic flight today, and too expensive for poor people to typically consider. > Middle class and rich people rarely immigrate. It's the poor that do. "The median income of foreign-born households in 2016 was $53,200, compared to U.S. born resident’s median household income of $58,000." That seems like middle class people to me. Do we have different definitions of poor?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > too expensive for poor people to typically consider. Seriously? Poor people spend a grand on iPhones. Besides, have you seen those pictures of immigrants going through Ellis Island clutching their battered suitcases? Do they look like rich people to you? > That seems like middle class people to me. Yup. Came poor and moved up to middle class. BTW, I am properly amused by your theory that the US became a superpower via rich people immigrating and transferring their money to the US. That doesn't even pass the sniff test.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago

jfk13 5y ago

In the past, a lot of (non-slave) people immigrated to the USA precisely because they were impoverished -- for example, Irish fleeing the Great Famine, among many others. > "Give me your tired, your poor, / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, / The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." Whether those words are as appropriate today may be another matter, of course.

WalterBright 5y ago
Something like 100,000 people per month are flooding into America via the southern border. What are they fleeing from?
- mellavora 5y ago
  crime fueled by America's War on Drugs.
- jfk13 5y ago
  I'm curious if that's a figure for the number who enter and remain long-term, or does it include those who are quickly detained and expelled? I.e. does the Mexican border account for a million-plus annual increase in overall US population?
teachingassist 5y ago
> for example, Irish fleeing the Great Famine, I understand this example to be of historical note because it was exceptional. Many people came over for the promise of farmland or gold or something that they could capitalise on.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  They came because they were poor. For a fictionalized account of Swedish immigrants, see Moberg's novel "The Emigrants". You might dismiss it as fiction, but the preface writes: "To ensure the verisimilitude of his story, Moberg did extensive historical research in both Sweden and the United States. He studied county records in Smaland and read many collections of letters that immigrants in America had sent to relatives in Sweden during the nineteenth Century. His studies also included trips to the Maritime Museum in Gothenburg. This research gave him a record of living conditions in nineteenth-century Sweden and a feel for life aboard sailing vessels in the days when emigration had not yet become an industry backed by large steamship companies."

WalterBright 5y ago

1. The USSR had (and has) much more resources per population. Japan achieved great wealth with insignificant natural resources. 2. Middle class and rich people rarely immigrate. It's the poor that do. Did you know that the reason the Titanic was built was to en-masse ship poor people to the US? The first class bit was mostly window dressing. The money was to be made by cramming poor people in below decks. In colonial times, America was populated mostly by people escaping prosecution, indentured servants, sons who weren't first born and were not going to inherit anything, teens whose parents could not support them, etc. The Chinese and Japanese people came to escape poverty. Furthermore, South America was and is rich in resources, but it remains poor. Nothing like the US happened there.

teachingassist 5y ago
> Did you know that the reason the Titanic was built was to en-masse ship poor people to the US? The first class bit was mostly window dressing. Third-class passage was £8, approximately $1000 in today's currency, i.e. more expensive than an equivalent trans-atlantic flight today, and too expensive for poor people to typically consider. > Middle class and rich people rarely immigrate. It's the poor that do. "The median income of foreign-born households in 2016 was $53,200, compared to U.S. born resident’s median household income of $58,000." That seems like middle class people to me. Do we have different definitions of poor?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > too expensive for poor people to typically consider. Seriously? Poor people spend a grand on iPhones. Besides, have you seen those pictures of immigrants going through Ellis Island clutching their battered suitcases? Do they look like rich people to you? > That seems like middle class people to me. Yup. Came poor and moved up to middle class. BTW, I am properly amused by your theory that the US became a superpower via rich people immigrating and transferring their money to the US. That doesn't even pass the sniff test.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago