4 ms·

There are really are issues with such a system and you listed some of them, but your recommendation makes me feel like you didn't read beyond the headline. The

There are really are issues with such a system and you listed some of them, but your recommendation makes me feel like you didn't read beyond the headline. They need a way to transfer location data by the word of mouth, which is extremely difficult when you're using numbers. With longer numbers, such as a comparatively precise location, you have a high risk of errors on both ends, so searching for a solution makes absolute sense. Nevertheless, based on the proprietary IP maybe the rescue services should consider building an own solution or evaluating open source alternatives if there are any

another-dave 5y ago
Though What 3 Words requires you to download a custom app & for the emergency services to use a back-end for the same app when handling incoming calls — if we're doing that, could we not just have a simple app that checks your GPS and then dials 999 with your lat/lng added to the phone number? My bank get me to key in my sort code & account number while using telephone banking. If we did the same here, we could get the precision of GPS without the user needing to call out any numbers
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Bonus points: all modern browsers understand coordinate based location, no need to add an app.
- teruakohatu 5y ago
  In New Zealand if you call the emergency number 111, the operator can automatically request the location of the device from the telco (with no opt out) if they belive there is a serious emergency and the location is not communicated. There is also some standardised way for the mobile phone to automatically send GPS coordinates to emergency numbers.
- OxO4 5y ago
  There's a standard for automatically sharing the current location with emergency services, which is supported by both Android and iOS [0]. According to the wiki article, the UK is even one of the countries that uses AML. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location
- PinguTS 5y ago
  AFAIK, this is required in the US. If you call 911 they can request your GPS position. All cell phones for that reason are required to do GPS. Even simple feature phones can do GPS in some way. They can acquire the GPS signal and then will forward that to the cell tower, which then is able to do the required calculations to translate that in coordinates. Somewhere around that line it was working, IRC.
tomcooks 5y ago
Why would I read only the headline and comment? To gain imaginary internet points which I can spend literally nowhere? No worries my friend, I don't have ADHD and can read 2 minutes long articles. It's not clear to me how a stupid system like this is used in favour of, say, 5 numbers+5 numbers (4 decimals coordinates lead to a ~5.5m radius) I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "high risk of errors on both ends", as there is no chance of mispelling. How do I know that? Because numbers are used in military standards for comms that have to be clear even through unreliable channels. Languages that have numbers which might be misunderstood specifically use a different number set (one example is the military in China). Building your own solution when you have a GLOBALLY ACCEPTED standard that took YEARS to be agreed upon is criminal in my opinion, rescue missions on the Alps where different cultures meet being a great example why you should stick to numbers.
- PinguTS 5y ago
  In military your are speaking about trained people to use proper pronunciation to eliminate disambiguation. In rescue we are talking about untrained people how give an initial communication by word of mouth. This data is then translated to coordinates and then communication by then trained people in the chain of rescue. So the problem is this initial communication by untrained people.
- avh02 5y ago
  have you ever tried providing a phone number/account number/id number over the phone? how easily/correctly was it transferred? Now add in hypothermia, noise, weather, or bodily harm to that equation. The only improvement would be if the app could provide the NATO phonetic alphabet version of your coordinates to you - but you're not going to remember those without looking at your screen while talking - which is multitasking in a situation that you probably aren't going to do it well in. Finally, the verbal transfer time is about 1/3. I don't like this thing for the reasons provided (proprietary and clearly has issues), but would rather see this in use than trying to provide ten numbers while bleeding out.
  - tomcooks 5y ago
politelemon 5y ago
> They need a way to transfer location data by the word of mouth, which is extremely difficult when you're using numbers. That doesn't sound correct. Numbers are universal, easier to remember, and less ambiguous than three English words. I don't see how it's more error prone to use numbers based systems, which many organisations and communities have been using for decades. And also considering the length of the three words which is roughly the same.
- Brainmulch 5y ago
  Woah I really have to disagree with numbers being easier to remember. I would imagine 3x words is far easier to remember than 12-16 numbers, and I don't see how it couldn't not be the case. The problem with using words that I see are as you've said - English locale isn't global, words without context can be misheard easily etc
- moooo99 5y ago
  Most people nowadays don't even remember their own phone number, let alone can remember two 4-5 digit numbers for their location. If I'd take 100 peoples to test what combination they can remember easier, I bet they have a harder time remembering 5.2345 + 6.2342 than dog.fridge.coffee.
zimpenfish 5y ago
> With longer numbers, such as a comparatively precise location, you have a high risk of errors on both ends Although the numeric location gets more precise as you add more numbers - if they only get 3 decimal places, that's about 110x80m in the UK. If you use degrees, minutes and seconds, you only need 6 numbers to get ~30x20m in the UK (and a decimal place on the seconds brings it down to ~3x2m - the same as W3W.)
rich_sasha 5y ago
> Nevertheless, based on the proprietary IP maybe the rescue services should consider building an own solution or evaluating open source alternatives if there are any Weren’t there a bunch of people trying to do exactly that (FOSS, translatable etc) only to get sued or as-good-as by what3words?
PeterisP 5y ago
It's less about difference between words and numbers for encoding information and about the fact that what3words have chosen a very, very bad way of reliably encoding information in words. With their set of words there is an extreme risk of error and miscommunication, searching for a solution makes sense but their particular solution is not it. There's a lot of research on how to choose words to ensure reliability of communication and reduce risk of misunderstandings, for example, the criteria used for Aviation Phonetic Alphabet - and what3words fails to take all that into account. You don't want separate things that are pronounced nearly the same, what3words fails in this regard as it contains many pairs like wants/once, secretary/secretory, ordinance/ordnance. You'd want a person that can reconfirm that word multiple to be certain that they've got that right, but what3words includes singular and plural wordforms (e.g. leader/leaders) which has caused miscommunication even when the responder has understood that they've got the right concept for the word or when the person who recites the three words from memory mistakenly thinks they've memorized it right. You'd want to ensure that the words are limited to a set of sounds that are clearly pronouncable and understandable by non-native speakers of different backgrounds, what3words does not even attempt that. In short, the particular system is poorly designed and fundamentally flawed because of that.

another-dave 5y ago

Though What 3 Words requires you to download a custom app & for the emergency services to use a back-end for the same app when handling incoming calls — if we're doing that, could we not just have a simple app that checks your GPS and then dials 999 with your lat/lng added to the phone number? My bank get me to key in my sort code & account number while using telephone banking. If we did the same here, we could get the precision of GPS without the user needing to call out any numbers

tomcooks 5y ago
Bonus points: all modern browsers understand coordinate based location, no need to add an app.
teruakohatu 5y ago
In New Zealand if you call the emergency number 111, the operator can automatically request the location of the device from the telco (with no opt out) if they belive there is a serious emergency and the location is not communicated. There is also some standardised way for the mobile phone to automatically send GPS coordinates to emergency numbers.
OxO4 5y ago
There's a standard for automatically sharing the current location with emergency services, which is supported by both Android and iOS [0]. According to the wiki article, the UK is even one of the countries that uses AML. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location
PinguTS 5y ago
AFAIK, this is required in the US. If you call 911 they can request your GPS position. All cell phones for that reason are required to do GPS. Even simple feature phones can do GPS in some way. They can acquire the GPS signal and then will forward that to the cell tower, which then is able to do the required calculations to translate that in coordinates. Somewhere around that line it was working, IRC.

tomcooks 5y ago

Why would I read only the headline and comment? To gain imaginary internet points which I can spend literally nowhere? No worries my friend, I don't have ADHD and can read 2 minutes long articles. It's not clear to me how a stupid system like this is used in favour of, say, 5 numbers+5 numbers (4 decimals coordinates lead to a ~5.5m radius) I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "high risk of errors on both ends", as there is no chance of mispelling. How do I know that? Because numbers are used in military standards for comms that have to be clear even through unreliable channels. Languages that have numbers which might be misunderstood specifically use a different number set (one example is the military in China). Building your own solution when you have a GLOBALLY ACCEPTED standard that took YEARS to be agreed upon is criminal in my opinion, rescue missions on the Alps where different cultures meet being a great example why you should stick to numbers.

PinguTS 5y ago
In military your are speaking about trained people to use proper pronunciation to eliminate disambiguation. In rescue we are talking about untrained people how give an initial communication by word of mouth. This data is then translated to coordinates and then communication by then trained people in the chain of rescue. So the problem is this initial communication by untrained people.
avh02 5y ago
have you ever tried providing a phone number/account number/id number over the phone? how easily/correctly was it transferred? Now add in hypothermia, noise, weather, or bodily harm to that equation. The only improvement would be if the app could provide the NATO phonetic alphabet version of your coordinates to you - but you're not going to remember those without looking at your screen while talking - which is multitasking in a situation that you probably aren't going to do it well in. Finally, the verbal transfer time is about 1/3. I don't like this thing for the reasons provided (proprietary and clearly has issues), but would rather see this in use than trying to provide ten numbers while bleeding out.
- tomcooks 5y ago

politelemon 5y ago

> They need a way to transfer location data by the word of mouth, which is extremely difficult when you're using numbers. That doesn't sound correct. Numbers are universal, easier to remember, and less ambiguous than three English words. I don't see how it's more error prone to use numbers based systems, which many organisations and communities have been using for decades. And also considering the length of the three words which is roughly the same.

Brainmulch 5y ago
Woah I really have to disagree with numbers being easier to remember. I would imagine 3x words is far easier to remember than 12-16 numbers, and I don't see how it couldn't not be the case. The problem with using words that I see are as you've said - English locale isn't global, words without context can be misheard easily etc
moooo99 5y ago
Most people nowadays don't even remember their own phone number, let alone can remember two 4-5 digit numbers for their location. If I'd take 100 peoples to test what combination they can remember easier, I bet they have a harder time remembering 5.2345 + 6.2342 than dog.fridge.coffee.

zimpenfish 5y ago

> With longer numbers, such as a comparatively precise location, you have a high risk of errors on both ends Although the numeric location gets more precise as you add more numbers - if they only get 3 decimal places, that's about 110x80m in the UK. If you use degrees, minutes and seconds, you only need 6 numbers to get ~30x20m in the UK (and a decimal place on the seconds brings it down to ~3x2m - the same as W3W.)

rich_sasha 5y ago

> Nevertheless, based on the proprietary IP maybe the rescue services should consider building an own solution or evaluating open source alternatives if there are any Weren’t there a bunch of people trying to do exactly that (FOSS, translatable etc) only to get sued or as-good-as by what3words?

PeterisP 5y ago

It's less about difference between words and numbers for encoding information and about the fact that what3words have chosen a very, very bad way of reliably encoding information in words. With their set of words there is an extreme risk of error and miscommunication, searching for a solution makes sense but their particular solution is not it. There's a lot of research on how to choose words to ensure reliability of communication and reduce risk of misunderstandings, for example, the criteria used for Aviation Phonetic Alphabet - and what3words fails to take all that into account. You don't want separate things that are pronounced nearly the same, what3words fails in this regard as it contains many pairs like wants/once, secretary/secretory, ordinance/ordnance. You'd want a person that can reconfirm that word multiple to be certain that they've got that right, but what3words includes singular and plural wordforms (e.g. leader/leaders) which has caused miscommunication even when the responder has understood that they've got the right concept for the word or when the person who recites the three words from memory mistakenly thinks they've memorized it right. You'd want to ensure that the words are limited to a set of sounds that are clearly pronouncable and understandable by non-native speakers of different backgrounds, what3words does not even attempt that. In short, the particular system is poorly designed and fundamentally flawed because of that.