7 ms·

California's math overhaul focuses on equity

27 points by rsj_hn 5y ago

sneak 5y ago
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
SilverRed 5y ago
Bring everyone down to the level of the lowest doesn't sound like a great plan for education imo. Pushing everyone to the highest level they can achieve would be my ideal. Not everyone will end up the same but everyone will be the best they can be.
- esyir 5y ago
  It's flat out terrible. Also a fantastic example of how "equity" is often just code for dragging everyone down to the lowest point. They claim that this is elevating those lower on the rung, but rather, this is doing everyone a disservice. Either those of lower ability get thrown into the deep end without a float, or those of higher aptitude are forced into wasting their life doing things they already know.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  I'm glad good universities are not afraid of straight up dropping underperforming students out like stray cats. Can only imagine the panic that would arise if high schools started doing the same.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  This is a common result of modern interpretations of equity and equality. Instead of helping everyone equally, more often than not the result is dragging everyone down to the common denominator.
tobesure 5y ago
Regardless of the design, in practice this is purely "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Achievement disproportionately occurs from those in the advanced or gifted range. In a petty quest for so called equity, we tear down the competent among us and society suffers as competence across the board is eroded. Welcome to post revolution USSR, where illiterate peasants were put in charge of managing food stocks. The result was famine.
zdragnar 5y ago
I took trigonometry in 11th and calculus my final year of high school, and always thought calc was easier. Something about the logic made intuitive sense, rather than the extensive rote memorization that was trig. Either way, what a shame that this is even being considered.
ralph84 5y ago
This will only increase inequality by causing more middle class families to opt out of public schools.
krrrh 5y ago
Kids privileged with money will still get advanced math in private schools, and those privileged with educated or engaged parents will benefit from encouragement to learn independently via Kahn Academy. If you’re a talented kid in public schools with busy working class parents, I guess you’re SOL?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- me_me_me 5y ago
  Well yes, this is actually cutting wings of bright kids with poor families. They'd have to go to school and then actually educate themselves after school. How do those morons get into decision makers roles? They can't see 1h into the future.
techie128 5y ago
The real victims are children. This is going to make them less competitive in the international arena.
mcshicks 5y ago
It's pretty easy in California to go to Community College while in High School, I took second year algebra in my high school, and on the recommendation of my high school teacher took Trig at the local community college (next door to the high school luckily) at the same time. There just wasn't any open spots at the High School. This was 1980 or so. My son took calculus really early maybe 10th grade. So he took multivariable calculus and differential equations at a local community college. I think a friend one grade above him also did the same. So I think it's possible for people to find solutions if teachers work in good faith. I think the real problem is just that I don't think the program will have the intended effect. There is no substitute for having a strong foundation, and pretty much if you get a C or worse in one class, you will have a much harder time going foward, but there really doesn't seem to be any systematic way to help those kids. Fortunately things like Khan Academy do exist, and for those kids who are motivated there are lots of doors open, way more than when I learned this stuff as a kid. The real issue is motiviation to learn math, most kids are not.
a-dub 5y ago
applied mathematics earlier on, especially with the use of computers, sounds fantastic to me. of course everyone is going to argue about equity or lowering standards or whatever... but personally i think bringing more applied math to k-12 will be a boon, especially in the age of computers. maybe by demonstrating how fun it can be to use the tools, more kids will be willing to suffer through the abject monotonity of rote memorization for doing hand calculations.
- gregjor 5y ago
  Has anyone ever seen computers work in public school classrooms? I used to work in the edu software segment and I never did. Probably 75% of computers in schools don’t work at all, or run Windows Me or Mac OS 8. Classroom teachers and schools usually don’t have staff or funds to maintain computers in classrooms, and teachers probably have less of a clue how to use them than a fourth grader.
174SIGSEGV 5y ago
https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/index.asp https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/index.asp if you want to read the actual draft proposals
TakuYam 5y ago
Could this trigger an expanded exodus from California? We’re fortunate enough that we don’t have to contemplate sending our kids to public school but if we weren’t this might be a push factor in those kind of decisions.
gregjor 5y ago
Still stuck in the ‘70s era idea that math has anything to do with using computers. I doubt the education experts in charge of this overhaul could describe what “data science” means. And now race theory creeps into the math curriculum. So relieved my own children didn’t get experimented on by “educators.”
threatofrain 5y ago
It's quite a shame that the first draft of the proposal basically makes small the place of Calculus in the high school curriculum, suggesting that it leaves students less prepared than had they taken a data science course instead. It is agreeable that data science is interesting, but one must ask what is data science without Linear Algebra or Calculus / Analysis.
- eesmith 5y ago
  This is certainly part of the debate over at least the last 10 years that I've heard of, whether "calculus is the capstone” - a view that ”originates with a committee of 10 men in 1892” - or if other forms of math should be considered as important alternatives. In general, many believe that statistics education suffers because of the focus on calculus. See for example this StackOverflow post from 7 years ago, https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2099/emphasizing-statistics-instead-of-calculus https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2099/empha... . It's not hard to find other links, like https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/calculus-is-the-peak-of-high-school-math-maybe-its-time-to-change-that/2018/05 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/calculus-is-the-pea... , with more information on the problems with emphasizing calculus: > For a picture of how severe that inequity can get, one only has to look at calculus. ... Until about 1980, calculus was seen as a higher education course, primarily for those interested in mathematics, physics, or other hard sciences, and only about 30,000 high school students took the course. That began to change when school reformers glommed onto calculus as an early example of a rigorous, college-preparatory course, ... despite the rapid growth of calculus as a gold standard, university calculus experts argue it is a much weaker sign that a student is actually prepared for postsecondary math in the science fields than it appears Indeed, the L.A. Times piece describe it as "in high school, when they can choose advanced subjects, including calculus, statistics and other forms of data science" (emphasis mine). Note too how it classified statistics as part of data science. IMO, data science without statistics is even worse than data science without calculus.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    But analysis and linear algebra are at the bedrock of statistics. Otherwise, how do you even do a line of best fit?
gher-shyu3i 5y ago
How are the far leftists being left to do whatever they want unchecked?
- me_me_me 5y ago
  This is some toxic mutation of what Europeans considered leftist policies. Leftist policy would be to fun schools and have good teachers, have a second had books programs, free school lunches for kids that need it etc etc. not dumbing down schools
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    This is just another example of how "left" and "right" mean next to nothing when people of the same groups are so radically different their ideals are completely incompatible.
taylodl 5y ago
Instead of focusing on Maths why don't we completely re-think High School? For starters let's get off this idea that everyone should be preparing to go to college. Sure, have a college prep curriculum for the 20% of your students who are going to go to college. Everyone else would benefit from vocational training with a solid educational foundation - that way should they decide to go to college they still could, they just may not be able to get into the most competitive universities. For those going the vocational training path you'd want to have a program where students in their 1st and 2nd years are spent sampling a variety of trades and vocations so they can determine where they want to focus for their 3rd and 4th years. Let's face it - even computer programming can be taught in this manner and people would be able to graduate from High School and get a job programming.

27 points by rsj_hn 5y ago

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

Bring everyone down to the level of the lowest doesn't sound like a great plan for education imo. Pushing everyone to the highest level they can achieve would be my ideal. Not everyone will end up the same but everyone will be the best they can be.

esyir 5y ago
It's flat out terrible. Also a fantastic example of how "equity" is often just code for dragging everyone down to the lowest point. They claim that this is elevating those lower on the rung, but rather, this is doing everyone a disservice. Either those of lower ability get thrown into the deep end without a float, or those of higher aptitude are forced into wasting their life doing things they already know.
Bancakes 5y ago
I'm glad good universities are not afraid of straight up dropping underperforming students out like stray cats. Can only imagine the panic that would arise if high schools started doing the same.
silicon2401 5y ago
This is a common result of modern interpretations of equity and equality. Instead of helping everyone equally, more often than not the result is dragging everyone down to the common denominator.

tobesure 5y ago

Regardless of the design, in practice this is purely "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Achievement disproportionately occurs from those in the advanced or gifted range. In a petty quest for so called equity, we tear down the competent among us and society suffers as competence across the board is eroded. Welcome to post revolution USSR, where illiterate peasants were put in charge of managing food stocks. The result was famine.

zdragnar 5y ago

I took trigonometry in 11th and calculus my final year of high school, and always thought calc was easier. Something about the logic made intuitive sense, rather than the extensive rote memorization that was trig. Either way, what a shame that this is even being considered.

ralph84 5y ago

This will only increase inequality by causing more middle class families to opt out of public schools.

krrrh 5y ago

Kids privileged with money will still get advanced math in private schools, and those privileged with educated or engaged parents will benefit from encouragement to learn independently via Kahn Academy. If you’re a talented kid in public schools with busy working class parents, I guess you’re SOL?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
me_me_me 5y ago
Well yes, this is actually cutting wings of bright kids with poor families. They'd have to go to school and then actually educate themselves after school. How do those morons get into decision makers roles? They can't see 1h into the future.

techie128 5y ago

The real victims are children. This is going to make them less competitive in the international arena.

mcshicks 5y ago

It's pretty easy in California to go to Community College while in High School, I took second year algebra in my high school, and on the recommendation of my high school teacher took Trig at the local community college (next door to the high school luckily) at the same time. There just wasn't any open spots at the High School. This was 1980 or so. My son took calculus really early maybe 10th grade. So he took multivariable calculus and differential equations at a local community college. I think a friend one grade above him also did the same. So I think it's possible for people to find solutions if teachers work in good faith. I think the real problem is just that I don't think the program will have the intended effect. There is no substitute for having a strong foundation, and pretty much if you get a C or worse in one class, you will have a much harder time going foward, but there really doesn't seem to be any systematic way to help those kids. Fortunately things like Khan Academy do exist, and for those kids who are motivated there are lots of doors open, way more than when I learned this stuff as a kid. The real issue is motiviation to learn math, most kids are not.

a-dub 5y ago

applied mathematics earlier on, especially with the use of computers, sounds fantastic to me. of course everyone is going to argue about equity or lowering standards or whatever... but personally i think bringing more applied math to k-12 will be a boon, especially in the age of computers. maybe by demonstrating how fun it can be to use the tools, more kids will be willing to suffer through the abject monotonity of rote memorization for doing hand calculations.

gregjor 5y ago
Has anyone ever seen computers work in public school classrooms? I used to work in the edu software segment and I never did. Probably 75% of computers in schools don’t work at all, or run Windows Me or Mac OS 8. Classroom teachers and schools usually don’t have staff or funds to maintain computers in classrooms, and teachers probably have less of a clue how to use them than a fourth grader.

174SIGSEGV 5y ago

https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/index.asp https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/index.asp if you want to read the actual draft proposals

TakuYam 5y ago

Could this trigger an expanded exodus from California? We’re fortunate enough that we don’t have to contemplate sending our kids to public school but if we weren’t this might be a push factor in those kind of decisions.

gregjor 5y ago

Still stuck in the ‘70s era idea that math has anything to do with using computers. I doubt the education experts in charge of this overhaul could describe what “data science” means. And now race theory creeps into the math curriculum. So relieved my own children didn’t get experimented on by “educators.”

threatofrain 5y ago

It's quite a shame that the first draft of the proposal basically makes small the place of Calculus in the high school curriculum, suggesting that it leaves students less prepared than had they taken a data science course instead. It is agreeable that data science is interesting, but one must ask what is data science without Linear Algebra or Calculus / Analysis.

eesmith 5y ago
This is certainly part of the debate over at least the last 10 years that I've heard of, whether "calculus is the capstone” - a view that ”originates with a committee of 10 men in 1892” - or if other forms of math should be considered as important alternatives. In general, many believe that statistics education suffers because of the focus on calculus. See for example this StackOverflow post from 7 years ago, https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2099/emphasizing-statistics-instead-of-calculus https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2099/empha... . It's not hard to find other links, like https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/calculus-is-the-peak-of-high-school-math-maybe-its-time-to-change-that/2018/05 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/calculus-is-the-pea... , with more information on the problems with emphasizing calculus: > For a picture of how severe that inequity can get, one only has to look at calculus. ... Until about 1980, calculus was seen as a higher education course, primarily for those interested in mathematics, physics, or other hard sciences, and only about 30,000 high school students took the course. That began to change when school reformers glommed onto calculus as an early example of a rigorous, college-preparatory course, ... despite the rapid growth of calculus as a gold standard, university calculus experts argue it is a much weaker sign that a student is actually prepared for postsecondary math in the science fields than it appears Indeed, the L.A. Times piece describe it as "in high school, when they can choose advanced subjects, including calculus, statistics and other forms of data science" (emphasis mine). Note too how it classified statistics as part of data science. IMO, data science without statistics is even worse than data science without calculus.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  But analysis and linear algebra are at the bedrock of statistics. Otherwise, how do you even do a line of best fit?

gher-shyu3i 5y ago

How are the far leftists being left to do whatever they want unchecked?

me_me_me 5y ago
This is some toxic mutation of what Europeans considered leftist policies. Leftist policy would be to fun schools and have good teachers, have a second had books programs, free school lunches for kids that need it etc etc. not dumbing down schools
- SilverRed 5y ago
  This is just another example of how "left" and "right" mean next to nothing when people of the same groups are so radically different their ideals are completely incompatible.

taylodl 5y ago

Instead of focusing on Maths why don't we completely re-think High School? For starters let's get off this idea that everyone should be preparing to go to college. Sure, have a college prep curriculum for the 20% of your students who are going to go to college. Everyone else would benefit from vocational training with a solid educational foundation - that way should they decide to go to college they still could, they just may not be able to get into the most competitive universities. For those going the vocational training path you'd want to have a program where students in their 1st and 2nd years are spent sampling a variety of trades and vocations so they can determine where they want to focus for their 3rd and 4th years. Let's face it - even computer programming can be taught in this manner and people would be able to graduate from High School and get a job programming.