5 ms·

Whole (most of) Europe works without an HOA, why USA can’t?

by klohto 5y ago

loeg 5y ago
Most of the US isn't under HOA, either.
nine_k 5y ago
I wonder if it holds e.g. for Germany. Maybe it's not HOA but the town magistrate, etc?
- netrus 5y ago
  If you want real HOA vibes in Germany, visit a Schrebergarten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany)!
- tannhaeuser 5y ago
  There's no such thing in Germany apart from eg leasehold of holiday homes, rented garden houses (Kleingartenvereine) etc. but there are municipal usage restrictions according to Baunutzungverordnung to the effect you can't repurpose residential areas as a commercial space, and local zoning rules according to a Bebauungplan or equivalent for eg how many storeys are allowed, building lines, distances, materials to choose, a duty for at least an effort to gardening, etc., but it depends greatly where you live, ranging from very strict to everything goes. Edit: IANAL
- brazzy 5y ago
  Bingo. In Germany, regulations enacted by municipal governments definitely cover a lot of points mentioned in the article. The main differences are that they are not quite as intrusive in what they cover (their goal is not explicitly to maintain property values), and you have legal recourse.
duped 5y ago
An HOA is more like a hyper local government like some local councils in Europe.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Do you have an example? I have never heard about that before.
ilamont 5y ago
HOAs seem to be more common in certain parts of the country, especially in the south and west. I've never encountered one in my state (Massachusetts) outside of retirement communities.
kmlx 5y ago
i don’t know which part of Europe you’re referring to, but i’ve noticed various restrictions, from what kind of front door you’re allowed to install, house color, roof color/type etc etc they’re not called HOAs thou, but the effect is similar.
supertrope 5y ago
Americans chafe at city government aggressively enforcing code. So cities have kicked that unpleasant task down a level to HOAs. As an added bonus, the cost of this regulation is now a HOA fee not a tax which is much harder to pass.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sandermvanvliet 5y ago
In the Netherlands we have somewhat similar arrangement in appartement buildings. Even the name is (translated) the same and operates like the described condo HOA from the article. It’s annoying as fuck. We want to put up sun screens as our windows are facing south so in summer the house is an oven. Nope can’t do, _everyone_ needs to agree that yes we can install them and what type and colour and whatnot. We have to call a meeting for that, guess how many people show up? Our next house is definitely not going to have such a thing if I can help it
- dalbasal 5y ago
  I've hear that villages in the netherlands have municipal (if that's the right term) policies in this vein, particularly picky about the colour of doors.
  - sandermvanvliet 5y ago
    There is indeed the “welstandscommissie”, no clue how to translate that. It’s meant to keep everything looking “nice and neat”. Depends a lot on what city/village it is but basically I think they try to avoid people painting their house purple or something.
Gibbon1 5y ago
HOA's were created to get around the supreme court ruling that racial covenants were unenforceable.
ultimoo 5y ago
"HOA Neighborhoods" as the author defines them are largely a suburban construct IMO. In a large city like SF for example, single family homes aren't typically a part of an HOA -- you're free to extend your home as you see fit (with the right permits from the city), and you're also responsible for all costs including roofs and front porch areas. This is also true in rural America where you fully own your property and there are virtually no restrictions in what you can do. I'm not very familiar with Europe but the couple of times I've been there it seemed somewhat similar to denser American cities and charming rural villages. I didn't see a parallel to "cookie cutter" American suburbia. I'm no expert on Europe but that's probably why HOAs aren't that common.
- art0rz 5y ago
  On the contrary, especially old towns in Europe have HOAs, as they want to preserve the old town look as to keep attracting tourists (and preserve history, although I think the income from tourism is generally their highest priority).
  - ryanbrunner 5y ago
    Are those private entities enforcing that though? Usually preserving the historical look of an area is more of a government-enforced thing than a private leasing arrangement.
    - art0rz 5y ago
      Yes, but the effect is the same.
- ryanbrunner 5y ago
  I don't think suburbs are a complete explanation for this though. HOAs are super rare in Canada (outside of apartment buildings and maybe townhouses), and we have just as much suburban sprawl as the U.S. Based on people mentioning maintaining commons (i.e. building parks, etc.) maybe it's a function of having comparatively less government provided common services in American suburbs? That would fit the stereotype in my head, but I admit I don't have a lot of solid data one way or another.
SilasX 5y ago
Right, they have formal laws that cover the things an HOA in the US would normally prohibit or restrict. Go mow your lawn on Sunday in Germany and let me know how long until someone tells Ruhetag at you.
CraigJPerry 5y ago
There’s a thing called a Parish council and that strikes me as similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England There was a recent event gained notoriety in the UK for the pettiness these bodies sometimes have https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I
- makomk 5y ago
  Not really the same thing, I don't think. Most of the time, parish councils just do boring but necessary things like emptying the dog poo bins, maintaining the village hall, keeping the playing fields trimmed and clean, that kind of upkeep of minor but very visible shared resources.
  - tyoma 5y ago
    This is exactly what most HOAs do also.
GuB-42 5y ago
We have HOA in France, it is called "copropriété". The one I have is the "condominium HOA" kind, that is the reasonable kind according to the article because of the nature of buildings. But the bad "mandatory HOA" kind also exists, with the same kind of rules as the article mentions. It is just that US-style suburban areas are less common. It looks like copropriétés in France are less focused on property value and the process sounds more democratic since every decision typically require a direct vote and most of the process is defined by law. However, it doesn't stop them from being a major pain in the ass sometimes.

Whole (most of) Europe works without an HOA, why USA can’t?

by klohto 5y ago

Whole (most of) Europe works without an HOA, why USA can’t?

loeg 5y ago

Most of the US isn't under HOA, either.

nine_k 5y ago

I wonder if it holds e.g. for Germany. Maybe it's not HOA but the town magistrate, etc?

netrus 5y ago
If you want real HOA vibes in Germany, visit a Schrebergarten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany)!
tannhaeuser 5y ago
There's no such thing in Germany apart from eg leasehold of holiday homes, rented garden houses (Kleingartenvereine) etc. but there are municipal usage restrictions according to Baunutzungverordnung to the effect you can't repurpose residential areas as a commercial space, and local zoning rules according to a Bebauungplan or equivalent for eg how many storeys are allowed, building lines, distances, materials to choose, a duty for at least an effort to gardening, etc., but it depends greatly where you live, ranging from very strict to everything goes. Edit: IANAL
brazzy 5y ago
Bingo. In Germany, regulations enacted by municipal governments definitely cover a lot of points mentioned in the article. The main differences are that they are not quite as intrusive in what they cover (their goal is not explicitly to maintain property values), and you have legal recourse.

duped 5y ago

An HOA is more like a hyper local government like some local councils in Europe.

barbazoo 5y ago
Do you have an example? I have never heard about that before.

ilamont 5y ago

HOAs seem to be more common in certain parts of the country, especially in the south and west. I've never encountered one in my state (Massachusetts) outside of retirement communities.

kmlx 5y ago

i don’t know which part of Europe you’re referring to, but i’ve noticed various restrictions, from what kind of front door you’re allowed to install, house color, roof color/type etc etc they’re not called HOAs thou, but the effect is similar.

supertrope 5y ago

Americans chafe at city government aggressively enforcing code. So cities have kicked that unpleasant task down a level to HOAs. As an added bonus, the cost of this regulation is now a HOA fee not a tax which is much harder to pass.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sandermvanvliet 5y ago

In the Netherlands we have somewhat similar arrangement in appartement buildings. Even the name is (translated) the same and operates like the described condo HOA from the article. It’s annoying as fuck. We want to put up sun screens as our windows are facing south so in summer the house is an oven. Nope can’t do, _everyone_ needs to agree that yes we can install them and what type and colour and whatnot. We have to call a meeting for that, guess how many people show up? Our next house is definitely not going to have such a thing if I can help it

dalbasal 5y ago
I've hear that villages in the netherlands have municipal (if that's the right term) policies in this vein, particularly picky about the colour of doors.
- sandermvanvliet 5y ago
  There is indeed the “welstandscommissie”, no clue how to translate that. It’s meant to keep everything looking “nice and neat”. Depends a lot on what city/village it is but basically I think they try to avoid people painting their house purple or something.

Gibbon1 5y ago

HOA's were created to get around the supreme court ruling that racial covenants were unenforceable.

ultimoo 5y ago

"HOA Neighborhoods" as the author defines them are largely a suburban construct IMO. In a large city like SF for example, single family homes aren't typically a part of an HOA -- you're free to extend your home as you see fit (with the right permits from the city), and you're also responsible for all costs including roofs and front porch areas. This is also true in rural America where you fully own your property and there are virtually no restrictions in what you can do. I'm not very familiar with Europe but the couple of times I've been there it seemed somewhat similar to denser American cities and charming rural villages. I didn't see a parallel to "cookie cutter" American suburbia. I'm no expert on Europe but that's probably why HOAs aren't that common.

art0rz 5y ago
On the contrary, especially old towns in Europe have HOAs, as they want to preserve the old town look as to keep attracting tourists (and preserve history, although I think the income from tourism is generally their highest priority).
- ryanbrunner 5y ago
  Are those private entities enforcing that though? Usually preserving the historical look of an area is more of a government-enforced thing than a private leasing arrangement.
  - art0rz 5y ago
    Yes, but the effect is the same.
ryanbrunner 5y ago
I don't think suburbs are a complete explanation for this though. HOAs are super rare in Canada (outside of apartment buildings and maybe townhouses), and we have just as much suburban sprawl as the U.S. Based on people mentioning maintaining commons (i.e. building parks, etc.) maybe it's a function of having comparatively less government provided common services in American suburbs? That would fit the stereotype in my head, but I admit I don't have a lot of solid data one way or another.

SilasX 5y ago

Right, they have formal laws that cover the things an HOA in the US would normally prohibit or restrict. Go mow your lawn on Sunday in Germany and let me know how long until someone tells Ruhetag at you.

CraigJPerry 5y ago

There’s a thing called a Parish council and that strikes me as similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England There was a recent event gained notoriety in the UK for the pettiness these bodies sometimes have https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I

makomk 5y ago
Not really the same thing, I don't think. Most of the time, parish councils just do boring but necessary things like emptying the dog poo bins, maintaining the village hall, keeping the playing fields trimmed and clean, that kind of upkeep of minor but very visible shared resources.
- tyoma 5y ago
  This is exactly what most HOAs do also.

GuB-42 5y ago

We have HOA in France, it is called "copropriété". The one I have is the "condominium HOA" kind, that is the reasonable kind according to the article because of the nature of buildings. But the bad "mandatory HOA" kind also exists, with the same kind of rules as the article mentions. It is just that US-style suburban areas are less common. It looks like copropriétés in France are less focused on property value and the process sounds more democratic since every decision typically require a direct vote and most of the process is defined by law. However, it doesn't stop them from being a major pain in the ass sometimes.