15 ms·
Yeah, nobody likes an HOA. We all want to be allowed to do whatever we want. That's why I live in a neighborhood without one. Leave the kids toys and trash can
by jimmyswimmy 5y ago
Yeah, nobody likes an HOA. We all want to be allowed to do whatever we want. That's why I live in a neighborhood without one.
Leave the kids toys and trash cans out for a day? A week? Forever? No problem! But I can't complain about similar things my neighbors might do. Or, I can complain, directly to them. If I care enough.
Neighbors replaced their roof a year ago. Left the old shingles on the lawn, for a year. Did I like it? No. Did I care enough to complain to them about it? Also no. That's the kind of neighborhood I want to live in though. You want a neighborhood where the houses are in perfect cookie cutter shape? You need an HOA neighborhood, and you get the pluses with the minuses.
What I think most of us really want is to be able to do whatever we want, while also being able to tell others what to do. That doesn't work. You have to choose to either rely on your neighbors being decent, or suffer through life under an HOA.
- klohto 5y agoWhole (most of) Europe works without an HOA, why USA can’t?
- loeg 5y agoMost of the US isn't under HOA, either.
- nine_k 5y agoI wonder if it holds e.g. for Germany. Maybe it's not HOA but the town magistrate, etc?
- netrus 5y agoIf you want real HOA vibes in Germany, visit a Schrebergarten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)#Germany)!
- tannhaeuser 5y agoThere's no such thing in Germany apart from eg leasehold of holiday homes, rented garden houses (Kleingartenvereine) etc. but there are municipal usage restrictions according to Baunutzungverordnung to the effect you can't repurpose residential areas as a commercial space, and local zoning rules according to a Bebauungplan or equivalent for eg how many storeys are allowed, building lines, distances, materials to choose, a duty for at least an effort to gardening, etc., but it depends greatly where you live, ranging from very strict to everything goes. Edit: IANAL
- brazzy 5y agoBingo. In Germany, regulations enacted by municipal governments definitely cover a lot of points mentioned in the article. The main differences are that they are not quite as intrusive in what they cover (their goal is not explicitly to maintain property values), and you have legal recourse.
- duped 5y agoAn HOA is more like a hyper local government like some local councils in Europe.
- barbazoo 5y agoDo you have an example? I have never heard about that before.
- ilamont 5y agoHOAs seem to be more common in certain parts of the country, especially in the south and west. I've never encountered one in my state (Massachusetts) outside of retirement communities.
- kmlx 5y agoi don’t know which part of Europe you’re referring to, but i’ve noticed various restrictions, from what kind of front door you’re allowed to install, house color, roof color/type etc etc they’re not called HOAs thou, but the effect is similar.
- supertrope 5y agoAmericans chafe at city government aggressively enforcing code. So cities have kicked that unpleasant task down a level to HOAs. As an added bonus, the cost of this regulation is now a HOA fee not a tax which is much harder to pass.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sandermvanvliet 5y agoIn the Netherlands we have somewhat similar arrangement in appartement buildings. Even the name is (translated) the same and operates like the described condo HOA from the article. It’s annoying as fuck. We want to put up sun screens as our windows are facing south so in summer the house is an oven. Nope can’t do, _everyone_ needs to agree that yes we can install them and what type and colour and whatnot. We have to call a meeting for that, guess how many people show up? Our next house is definitely not going to have such a thing if I can help it
- dalbasal 5y agoI've hear that villages in the netherlands have municipal (if that's the right term) policies in this vein, particularly picky about the colour of doors.
- sandermvanvliet 5y agoThere is indeed the “welstandscommissie”, no clue how to translate that. It’s meant to keep everything looking “nice and neat”. Depends a lot on what city/village it is but basically I think they try to avoid people painting their house purple or something.
- Gibbon1 5y agoHOA's were created to get around the supreme court ruling that racial covenants were unenforceable.
- ultimoo 5y ago"HOA Neighborhoods" as the author defines them are largely a suburban construct IMO. In a large city like SF for example, single family homes aren't typically a part of an HOA -- you're free to extend your home as you see fit (with the right permits from the city), and you're also responsible for all costs including roofs and front porch areas. This is also true in rural America where you fully own your property and there are virtually no restrictions in what you can do. I'm not very familiar with Europe but the couple of times I've been there it seemed somewhat similar to denser American cities and charming rural villages. I didn't see a parallel to "cookie cutter" American suburbia. I'm no expert on Europe but that's probably why HOAs aren't that common.
- art0rz 5y agoOn the contrary, especially old towns in Europe have HOAs, as they want to preserve the old town look as to keep attracting tourists (and preserve history, although I think the income from tourism is generally their highest priority).
- ryanbrunner 5y agoAre those private entities enforcing that though? Usually preserving the historical look of an area is more of a government-enforced thing than a private leasing arrangement.
- art0rz 5y agoYes, but the effect is the same.
- ryanbrunner 5y agoI don't think suburbs are a complete explanation for this though. HOAs are super rare in Canada (outside of apartment buildings and maybe townhouses), and we have just as much suburban sprawl as the U.S. Based on people mentioning maintaining commons (i.e. building parks, etc.) maybe it's a function of having comparatively less government provided common services in American suburbs? That would fit the stereotype in my head, but I admit I don't have a lot of solid data one way or another.
- SilasX 5y agoRight, they have formal laws that cover the things an HOA in the US would normally prohibit or restrict. Go mow your lawn on Sunday in Germany and let me know how long until someone tells Ruhetag at you.
- CraigJPerry 5y agoThere’s a thing called a Parish council and that strikes me as similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_councils_in_England There was a recent event gained notoriety in the UK for the pettiness these bodies sometimes have https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3P_0GAi0I
- makomk 5y agoNot really the same thing, I don't think. Most of the time, parish councils just do boring but necessary things like emptying the dog poo bins, maintaining the village hall, keeping the playing fields trimmed and clean, that kind of upkeep of minor but very visible shared resources.
- tyoma 5y agoThis is exactly what most HOAs do also.
- GuB-42 5y agoWe have HOA in France, it is called "copropriété". The one I have is the "condominium HOA" kind, that is the reasonable kind according to the article because of the nature of buildings. But the bad "mandatory HOA" kind also exists, with the same kind of rules as the article mentions. It is just that US-style suburban areas are less common. It looks like copropriétés in France are less focused on property value and the process sounds more democratic since every decision typically require a direct vote and most of the process is defined by law. However, it doesn't stop them from being a major pain in the ass sometimes.
- howinteresting 5y agoI've never lived in a neighborhood where the houses must be in "perfect cookie cutter shape", nor would I ever want to. I want my neighborhood to be diverse and interesting. HOA neighborhoods sound soul-crushing to me.
- chrisseaton 5y ago'Perfect cookie cutter shape' can be charming and historically significant. I'm glade there is an association maintaining the character of a village I used to live in, and that people aren't free to remodel them on a whim, permanently damaging cultural property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Sunlight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Sunlight
- domador 5y agoThat could be an exception. However, when I hear "HOA", the kind of neighborhood that comes to mind is "insipid, yet pretentious suburb".
- howinteresting 5y agoWhen I hear "historically significant" I think of segregationist NIMBYs. The future is more important than the past.
- chrisseaton 5y agoActually part of the job the association does in the village I lived in was to own some of the houses and rent them out as registered social landlord (meaning you can rent to people using social security.) They also helped to maintain museums, cultural spaces, and green spaces, for everyone. Destroying cultural property to install a satellite dish is not making 'the future more important than the past'.
- howinteresting 5y agoHistoric preservation often involves rejecting things like solar panels on rooftops. That is 100% privileging the past over the future.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dvtrn 5y agoWhy does this post read like an over the top and rather extreme representation of non-HOA neighborhoods to the point of being just short of a false-dichotomy altogether? It sounds like an awful situation you have but it’s not as if this is how every neighborhood is that isn’t united and governed by HOAs.
- gameswithgo 5y agomy last non hoa neighborhood was worse than that so it read as tame
- pixl97 5y agoIt turns out a lot of Americans are selfish and their property is a disaster. Getting into rentals can be even worse since they tend to care less.
- jchw 5y ago>What I think most of us really want is to be able to do whatever we want, while also being able to tell others what to do. I think some people really do want this. But I don't. I really just want to be able to do whatever I want, and then want other people to do whatever they want, as long as it isn't doing material harm to someone. The problem can come down to defining 'harm' since some people try to define it in their own image of what they wish wasn't allowed, but I hope there are still people out there who espouse these values, because it's the world I would prefer to live in :\ The problem is that people think like this everywhere, because it's exceptionally easy to just lie to yourself and convince yourself that in your case, it's justified to tell others what to do. And you get a lot of mental gymnastics out of that. I do understand that sometimes it might not be out of a strict desire to prevent people from doing stuff that they do not personally agree with. For example, maybe someone's primary concern is property value, or hell, just having a nice looking neighborhood. But honestly, if I see a neighborhood with a very tasteless looking front yard with shit scattered about, then at least that's a sign that the neighborhood is chill. edit: And it shall be noted I am trying to make a case against HOAs. I think my note about “harm” was a bit ambiguous. In general I want the legal system to define what is harmful enough to be actionable. Imperfect? Yes. A sort of “nobody’s favorite, but everybody’s favorite” -type situation, in my view.
- lisper 5y ago> The problem can come down to defining 'harm' Indeed. If I, say, allow drug addicts to camp out on my front lawn and defecate on it, I'm probably going to make the neighborhood as a whole less desirable to live in and hence reduce property values. The net effect of that is the same as literally taking money from you. Is that harm? Because it's really hard to draw a sharp line between that and the wrong color of shutters. Aside: I lived in HOA neighborhoods and non-HOA neighborhoods. On the whole I prefer the later, but I have horror stories from both.
- josephcsible 5y agoThis is the sand heap fallacy. Even if you can't tell where the line is, it's obvious that turning your front yard into a mini-San Francisco is on one side of it, and that painting your shutters the wrong color is on the other side of it. We shouldn't have to pick the wrong answer for one of these bright-line cases just because there's some gray cases.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- shados 5y ago> We all want to be allowed to do whatever we want Ehh, not everyone's that selfish. I for one am perfectly happy with compromising so that my neighbors are happier with what I do, but only if they return the favor. At a small scale we can have a handshake agreement, but for something more long term or with a lot more people, it's great to be able to put it on paper.
- blabitty 5y agoI personally chose to live in an incorporated city but not an HOA. There are city ordinances with actual real government representation and force of law behind them for serious health and safety concerns but we can paint our houses whatever color we want and build sheds under a certain size any way we like etc. The important thing with choosing a place to live is to honestly assess what you want and how much you want your neighbors to be able to do. There are plusses and minuses under any living arrangement. Personally I would never live under a HOA but in exchange I have to put up with the stuff that is under the level of city enforcement, things like boom cars and a few unkept lawns. In exchange I can work on my truck in my driveway without some busybody stopping me.
- howinteresting 5y agoSame here. Live in a nice part of a large city without an HOA. All the homes look different — it's a mix of single-family and multi-family housing — and it's delightful.
- xwdv 5y agoIt’s easier to live somewhere with a decent HOA than to rely on each of your neighbors being decent. Otherwise, the only other way to ensure neighbors don’t bother you without an HOA is to live somewhere with lots of land around homes so that neighbors are very spaced out, and hopefully they will be far enough from you to not be bothered by their filth, and putting up high hedges and trees should be enough to block them from your sight.
- astura 5y ago>You have to choose to either rely on your neighbors being decent, or suffer through life under an HOA. Local Governments traditionally played this role. Problem is that some people hate governments simply because they are governments so they make private governments. I guess that makes sense to them? In my (non HOA) neighborhood leaving shingles on your lawn comes with a $100/day fine. The people who were cleaning out the house next door to me (they inherited it) were leaving piles of garbage outside. I saw the blight officer leave a notice in their mailbox and the garbage was gone the next day. (I assume it was a warning rather than a fine, but idk.)
- throwaway98797 5y agoExactly. That’s why you live in an HOA area, but become the ruler. Rules for thee, but not for me!
- xtracto 5y agoRight. I've always thought that HOAs seem kind of un-American. Being how Americans are all pro-freedom and anti-socialist , having some social construct dictating what you can do in your house AND paying it yo do so seems quite far from US values. And I am not American and I'm pretty socialist myself.