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Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline: https://blog.coinbase.com/fact-check-crypto-is-increasingly-be

Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline: https://blog.coinbase.com/fact-check-crypto-is-increasingly-being-used-for-criminal-activity-and-is-a-haven-for-illicit-856a71dfb399 https://blog.coinbase.com/fact-check-crypto-is-increasingly-... ISIS has figured out how to get funded long before crypto was a thing. Banks already launder billions and that's harder to trace than Bitcoin transactions. And now, like it or not, crypto already exists and is here to stay, so perhaps it's better to start building legitimate use-cases around it than to just mumble about ISIS from afar. All of your examples seem very contrived for how crypto won't work. I can make up examples of areas where crypto won't help, too. It's not supposed to be the end-all use case for everything. The lack of conflict resolution in crypto is a side effect of decentralization. When you're talking global interoperability and value exchange, conflict resolution is off the table anyway. What court am I supposed to go to if I wire money to a guy in Nigeria and he doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain? Ownership of the Mona Lisa might not be one, but there are many use-cases where removing a centralized mediator has a ton of potential benefits. One example might be Basic Attention Token, where advertisers and users can get a better experience because there's no need to satisfy the Google Ads middleman. What's the use for a conflict resolution mechanism in online advertising? Same with device connectivity with helium network, or decentralized lending that can provide better interest rates because there's not a huge meatspace banking infrastructure to support.

knorker 5y ago
> All of your examples seem very contrived for how crypto won't work. I'm not saying crypto won't work. I'm saying every single idea that's been proposed won't work. And the base problem is that the whole point of these coins is disguising "I want to create a world problem" as "I want to solve a problem". "It's hard to get around [AML, KYC, tax, etc.] laws" is not a "problem" that needs to be solved. Yet again and again, this is what coiners propose as a potential "killer app". > When you're talking global interoperability and value exchange, conflict resolution is off the table anyway. Huh? > What court am I supposed to go to if I wire money to a guy in Nigeria and he doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain? Your bank makes it hard to do this, to make sure you're not being scammed. And what problem exactly are you trying to solve? If you send BTC to Nigeria and the guy doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain then BTC by design doesn't allow any recourse. Our current system may or may not be able to help you, but BTC goes out of its way to say "fuck you, you should just never have made a mistake". But also, if someone moves $10B to Nigeria, you can bet your ass they'll find a way. C.f. when one of the Pirate Bay founders, while living in Cambodia which doesn't have an extradition treaty, hacked some banks. VERY quickly that whole "doesn't have an extradition treaty" did not matter at all, and he got arrested and put in prison. He should have bought bitcoin/monero. Noob. :-) It's actually telling that he had full access to the bank's mainframe, yet still only managed to steal like a couple of thousand USD. The rest of the transfers were blocked or reversed. So the system worked as intended. And as we've seen time and time again (cough, Mt Gox), bitcoin just doesn't work even as intended. > One example might be For many years now we've heard hypotheticals, but no actual solutions. The time for brainstorming should have been over, considering the HUGE environmental and crime impact. At this point it all sounds like "it's not worked so far, but can we just continue setting fire to children? I think it'll do something good one of these days". > decentralized lending that can provide better interest rates because there's not a huge meatspace banking infrastructure to support. But can we have an actual solution, not just handwaving, here? How are you going to solve the intersection between lending contract and laws? What about bankrupsy? What about court ordered child support? What about inheritance, death, etc? These blockchain things are trying to solve what is actually the EASY problems, not the hard problems. Like, what do you think will happen if you say "can I get a better interest rate, if I agree to be excluded from chapter 11 and chapter 7 laws?". Likely no, no you cannot. Your "math" doesn't magically make the government, judicial system, and police just "go away". And for good reason.
- tornato7 5y ago
  > Your bank makes it hard to do this, to make sure you're not being scammed. Most exchanges also blacklist addresses to help keep you from getting scammed. People still get scammed, though. > Mt Gox A sketchy exchange hacked 7 years ago and many of the BTC was recovered. Good luck hacking Coinbase. > hypotheticals, but no actual solutions Basic Attention Token is literally a functional system working today, right now. So is Helium Network, The Graph, Unlock Protocol, Storj, Golem, Livepeer, and dozens of other projects that are actually making awesome innovations today. > The time for brainstorming should have been over, considering the HUGE environmental and crime impact So if we stop all crypto brainstorming and innovation, then mining and crime will suddenly disappear? What if I told you crypto innovation is making these things better, not worse - Proof-of-Stake is about to reduce Ethereum's energy use by 99.9%, only made possible by continued innovation in crypto. > But can we have an actual solution, not just handwaving, here? Yes, Compound and Aave are decentralized lending platforms that give you better interest rates than banks. Your points about bankruptcy don't apply here, because DeFi lending is designed so that you can't go into debt. Bankruptcy only happens when you're loaned some money that you can't pay back. In meatspace, avoiding debt collectors and child support is still illegal, whether you're hoarding BTC or just putting cash under your mattress. Even so, can we agree that if I'm paying for a newsletter subscription online, that the multi-trillion dollar meatspace infrastructure of banks, credit cards, bankruptcy laws, FDIC, and court settlements is basically wasted? Shouldn't I just be able to sign up to a website, instantly pay a fraction of an ETH, and be on my way, no banks involved? That's the core of what crypto promises: web-native money.
  - knorker 5y ago
    > People still get scammed, though. Which is why nonreversibility is a bug. > A sketchy exchange hacked 7 years ago and many of the BTC was recovered. 4 years before that article. > Good luck hacking Coinbase. That's a matter of when, not if. Like I just said even actual real banks get hacked. But it doesn't even have to be that clean. It's enough that one Coinbase employee has the opportunity for even one minute. I don't know how much they manage, but someone left alone (or conspiring, for a two-key system), and you can have all the money disappear. And the thing is, they'll likely get caught in that case. But so what? The average sentence for robbery is apparently 111 months. Now, I didn't do more research on that than a simple googling, but 10 years prison, and when you get out you're a billionaire? And keeping in mind that during that whole prison time, your family is stinking rich. > Proof-of-Stake is about to reduce Ethereum's energy use by 99.9% Again, I'm not holding my breath. Especially since bitcoin HODLers will never give up, and bitcoin factories have financial incentive to continue the scam. > So if we stop all crypto brainstorming and innovation No. You should show some results after a decade of crime and waste. > What if I told you crypto innovation is making these things better, not worse I read this as "reducing the problems they created", not "making the preexisting problems less of a problem". Great. Let me know when coiners consume less power than Denmark for 7tx/sec. > DeFi lending is designed so that you can't go into debt. How does that work? Let's say I have a DeFi loan, and then I get drunk and smash a priceless vase, now owing $100M to some art gallery? So my assets and liabilites are now that loan, and my debt to the art gallery. I go bankrupt, and my assets and liabilities are renegotiated / forgiven. And the solution can't be "the law of the land, and courts, do not have jurisdiction over DeFi debt". Because obviously they do. > In meatspace, avoiding debt collectors and child support is still illegal, whether you're hoarding BTC or just putting cash under your mattress. Yes, but like I said: judgement proof. Today it sucks to be judgement proof (i.e. you pretty much have to be a bum). In a coin future it doesn't really affect you at all. > Even so, can we agree that if I'm paying for a newsletter subscription online, that the multi-trillion dollar meatspace infrastructure of banks, credit cards, bankruptcy laws, FDIC, and court settlements is basically wasted? Not sure what you mean, here. The multi-trillion dollar industry does more than allow you to pay for things online. It's the engine of the whole economy. A better comparison is to compare it to only paypal. And paypal does have overhead, to be sure. And yes for any happy transaction between you and the newsletter that overhead is waste. But you're paying for when it's not a happy transaction. E.g. when the company goes bust, just plain doesn't give you the product or service, or when your card gets stolen (c.f. someone hacked your computer), and other mishaps. And also for when actually the newslesser is a front, and "you" are actually just laundering money for them. Compare this to how in the 90s some people set up companios selling ringtones, and then went and bought SIM cards with cash, and used it all on their own ringtones. You don't have to make it impossible, just too risky or expensive to be worth it. At least with real money. With coins making it risky doesn't help, because the money can't be clawed back, so you can just wait out your prison sentence. You saying the whole industry is wasted is like me saying police, fire departments, and ambulance are a complete waste, because I have never neither either of them. Hell, I've never even needed my home or car insurance, or my life insurance.
knorker 5y ago
> Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline: Do you have the source study? I don't want to give my personal data to a blockchain company, and they rejected both mailinator and gmail for registration.
- tornato7 5y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean. You don't need an account to view the Coinbase blog.
  - knorker 5y ago
    No, but the study they reference: https://www.elliptic.co/resources/typologies-concise-guide-crypto-leaders https://www.elliptic.co/resources/typologies-concise-guide-c...

knorker 5y ago

> All of your examples seem very contrived for how crypto won't work. I'm not saying crypto won't work. I'm saying every single idea that's been proposed won't work. And the base problem is that the whole point of these coins is disguising "I want to create a world problem" as "I want to solve a problem". "It's hard to get around [AML, KYC, tax, etc.] laws" is not a "problem" that needs to be solved. Yet again and again, this is what coiners propose as a potential "killer app". > When you're talking global interoperability and value exchange, conflict resolution is off the table anyway. Huh? > What court am I supposed to go to if I wire money to a guy in Nigeria and he doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain? Your bank makes it hard to do this, to make sure you're not being scammed. And what problem exactly are you trying to solve? If you send BTC to Nigeria and the guy doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain then BTC by design doesn't allow any recourse. Our current system may or may not be able to help you, but BTC goes out of its way to say "fuck you, you should just never have made a mistake". But also, if someone moves $10B to Nigeria, you can bet your ass they'll find a way. C.f. when one of the Pirate Bay founders, while living in Cambodia which doesn't have an extradition treaty, hacked some banks. VERY quickly that whole "doesn't have an extradition treaty" did not matter at all, and he got arrested and put in prison. He should have bought bitcoin/monero. Noob. :-) It's actually telling that he had full access to the bank's mainframe, yet still only managed to steal like a couple of thousand USD. The rest of the transfers were blocked or reversed. So the system worked as intended. And as we've seen time and time again (cough, Mt Gox), bitcoin just doesn't work even as intended. > One example might be For many years now we've heard hypotheticals, but no actual solutions. The time for brainstorming should have been over, considering the HUGE environmental and crime impact. At this point it all sounds like "it's not worked so far, but can we just continue setting fire to children? I think it'll do something good one of these days". > decentralized lending that can provide better interest rates because there's not a huge meatspace banking infrastructure to support. But can we have an actual solution, not just handwaving, here? How are you going to solve the intersection between lending contract and laws? What about bankrupsy? What about court ordered child support? What about inheritance, death, etc? These blockchain things are trying to solve what is actually the EASY problems, not the hard problems. Like, what do you think will happen if you say "can I get a better interest rate, if I agree to be excluded from chapter 11 and chapter 7 laws?". Likely no, no you cannot. Your "math" doesn't magically make the government, judicial system, and police just "go away". And for good reason.

tornato7 5y ago
> Your bank makes it hard to do this, to make sure you're not being scammed. Most exchanges also blacklist addresses to help keep you from getting scammed. People still get scammed, though. > Mt Gox A sketchy exchange hacked 7 years ago and many of the BTC was recovered. Good luck hacking Coinbase. > hypotheticals, but no actual solutions Basic Attention Token is literally a functional system working today, right now. So is Helium Network, The Graph, Unlock Protocol, Storj, Golem, Livepeer, and dozens of other projects that are actually making awesome innovations today. > The time for brainstorming should have been over, considering the HUGE environmental and crime impact So if we stop all crypto brainstorming and innovation, then mining and crime will suddenly disappear? What if I told you crypto innovation is making these things better, not worse - Proof-of-Stake is about to reduce Ethereum's energy use by 99.9%, only made possible by continued innovation in crypto. > But can we have an actual solution, not just handwaving, here? Yes, Compound and Aave are decentralized lending platforms that give you better interest rates than banks. Your points about bankruptcy don't apply here, because DeFi lending is designed so that you can't go into debt. Bankruptcy only happens when you're loaned some money that you can't pay back. In meatspace, avoiding debt collectors and child support is still illegal, whether you're hoarding BTC or just putting cash under your mattress. Even so, can we agree that if I'm paying for a newsletter subscription online, that the multi-trillion dollar meatspace infrastructure of banks, credit cards, bankruptcy laws, FDIC, and court settlements is basically wasted? Shouldn't I just be able to sign up to a website, instantly pay a fraction of an ETH, and be on my way, no banks involved? That's the core of what crypto promises: web-native money.
- knorker 5y ago
  > People still get scammed, though. Which is why nonreversibility is a bug. > A sketchy exchange hacked 7 years ago and many of the BTC was recovered. 4 years before that article. > Good luck hacking Coinbase. That's a matter of when, not if. Like I just said even actual real banks get hacked. But it doesn't even have to be that clean. It's enough that one Coinbase employee has the opportunity for even one minute. I don't know how much they manage, but someone left alone (or conspiring, for a two-key system), and you can have all the money disappear. And the thing is, they'll likely get caught in that case. But so what? The average sentence for robbery is apparently 111 months. Now, I didn't do more research on that than a simple googling, but 10 years prison, and when you get out you're a billionaire? And keeping in mind that during that whole prison time, your family is stinking rich. > Proof-of-Stake is about to reduce Ethereum's energy use by 99.9% Again, I'm not holding my breath. Especially since bitcoin HODLers will never give up, and bitcoin factories have financial incentive to continue the scam. > So if we stop all crypto brainstorming and innovation No. You should show some results after a decade of crime and waste. > What if I told you crypto innovation is making these things better, not worse I read this as "reducing the problems they created", not "making the preexisting problems less of a problem". Great. Let me know when coiners consume less power than Denmark for 7tx/sec. > DeFi lending is designed so that you can't go into debt. How does that work? Let's say I have a DeFi loan, and then I get drunk and smash a priceless vase, now owing $100M to some art gallery? So my assets and liabilites are now that loan, and my debt to the art gallery. I go bankrupt, and my assets and liabilities are renegotiated / forgiven. And the solution can't be "the law of the land, and courts, do not have jurisdiction over DeFi debt". Because obviously they do. > In meatspace, avoiding debt collectors and child support is still illegal, whether you're hoarding BTC or just putting cash under your mattress. Yes, but like I said: judgement proof. Today it sucks to be judgement proof (i.e. you pretty much have to be a bum). In a coin future it doesn't really affect you at all. > Even so, can we agree that if I'm paying for a newsletter subscription online, that the multi-trillion dollar meatspace infrastructure of banks, credit cards, bankruptcy laws, FDIC, and court settlements is basically wasted? Not sure what you mean, here. The multi-trillion dollar industry does more than allow you to pay for things online. It's the engine of the whole economy. A better comparison is to compare it to only paypal. And paypal does have overhead, to be sure. And yes for any happy transaction between you and the newsletter that overhead is waste. But you're paying for when it's not a happy transaction. E.g. when the company goes bust, just plain doesn't give you the product or service, or when your card gets stolen (c.f. someone hacked your computer), and other mishaps. And also for when actually the newslesser is a front, and "you" are actually just laundering money for them. Compare this to how in the 90s some people set up companios selling ringtones, and then went and bought SIM cards with cash, and used it all on their own ringtones. You don't have to make it impossible, just too risky or expensive to be worth it. At least with real money. With coins making it risky doesn't help, because the money can't be clawed back, so you can just wait out your prison sentence. You saying the whole industry is wasted is like me saying police, fire departments, and ambulance are a complete waste, because I have never neither either of them. Hell, I've never even needed my home or car insurance, or my life insurance.

knorker 5y ago

> Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline: Do you have the source study? I don't want to give my personal data to a blockchain company, and they rejected both mailinator and gmail for registration.

tornato7 5y ago
I'm not sure what you mean. You don't need an account to view the Coinbase blog.
- knorker 5y ago
  No, but the study they reference: https://www.elliptic.co/resources/typologies-concise-guide-crypto-leaders https://www.elliptic.co/resources/typologies-concise-guide-c...