4 ms·

It's also worth noting nicotine has interesting "nootropic" properties. You don't really have to quit your addiction to quit smoking, and there can be some adv

It's also worth noting nicotine has interesting "nootropic" properties. You don't really have to quit your addiction to quit smoking, and there can be some advantages to continuing if you can afford it in safer forms.

bitcuration 5y ago
has vaping been out of question?
- jessriedel 5y ago
  The author said they were embarrassed by gum. Outside of very specific subcultures, it's safe to say they would be much more embarassed by vaping. But sure, vaping will deliver nicotine, and its significantly safer than cigarettes (though we don't know if it's safe).
motohagiography 5y ago
It is a suprisingly powerful drug. I gave up cigarettes over 20 years ago and have zero craving for them, the smell is revolting. Looking back, the craving felt a lot like fasting. However today, I have a cigar a little more than once a month on average, and I can tell the nicotine content affects mood, sleep, and maybe some hormone levels for a day or two after, as much or moreso than most prescriptions I've ever taken. There is extra focus and centeredness under its influence and a kind of diminished neuroticism, which I suppose was what made it "cool." There are other factors on that as well, since who today has an hour of uninterrupted solitude (let alone in good company) to sit and do nothing but contemplate, with the space of your own to temporarily pollute, and afford to spend the kind of money on yourself that a good one costs. It would be hard to separate this mini-vacation from the percieved smart drug effects of nicotine. Cigarettes are evil and cruel in every concievable way, and anyone under their yoke who breaks it deserves support. Fan of OP's interintellect startup as well.
- HKH2 5y ago
  "diminished neuroticism" - you've reminded me of the link between smoking and schizophrenia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia_and_tobacco_smoking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia_and_tobacco_sm...
dageshi 5y ago
Nicotine seems to vary depending on the delivery mechanism. Cigar (not inhaled) do not seem to be addictive at all for most who use them, more of a hobby. I've used the little Swedish "packets" you slip under your top lip and those are like a habit that's hard to break while you have a supply, they become part of your daily routine but I've never had any withdrawal symptoms from them. Cigarettes by all accounts seem addictive as fuck, I did have one when I was younger, desperately wanted another for about 2 days afterwards, after that the craving subsided I never had another one since.
- snusthrowaway 5y ago
  Conversely, I have never had any urge for cigarettes. Occasionally, I crave for cigars. Snus, however, I crave roughly daily despite stopping around 6 months ago. During lockdowns my nicotine use via snus got a bit out of hand -- at the peak I spent roughly a puck a day (so like 20x pouches of maybe 14mg nicotine a day). I usually stayed up two days straight and slept for the third. Once I woke up, I could not get out of the bed without one. Once I stopped using when I ran out, I had headaches which felt like they crushed my head and put the world spinning. This continued for maybe 3 days. After 3 months of discontinued use, I tried one of the stronger snus brands while intoxicated -- the ones I would not given a second thought while at my peaks -- I became so overwhelmed in a matter of a dozen seconds that I could not walk, and had to lie down and avoid puking on the spot. And despite stopping, I now have this clear cavity on my right side of mouth with the gums clearly redacted. I only spent snus heavily for roughly three months (which probably masqueraded depression or lack of motivation), albeit, during that time almost at all times and occasionally with multiple pouches. Overall, I have done coffee at great amounts, tried amphetamines and ephedrine, cannabis in most of its forms, some benzos, and self-medicated myself with alcohol, and I must say the physical withdrawals for me have been worst with nicotine, with only benzos taking the lead on the physiological toplist.
greenshackle2 5y ago
I got myself addicted to nicotine gum and I never even smoked. To the point that I was constantly using it. Going through maybe 10-15 2mg gums per day. I used patches and regular non-nicotine gum to quit but I still have the urge, especially when I have difficulty focusing at work, because it does actually seem to help with that.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  So, no one knows with complete confidence the long-term effects of nicotine alone (i.e., nicotine when taken without all the carcinogens in cigarettes associated with combustion that are not found in nicotine gum). But the evidence we do have suggests it's vastly safer than cigarettes. In fact, I don't even think we know if it's harmful on net. https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine Given the appetite suppression, and the known terrible effects of obesity, it could even be beneficial. You will get addicted to it though.
  - greenshackle2 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm not overly worried about it, I've read the gwern page before. I wouldn't have tried the gum if I thought it was nearly as bad as cigarettes. I stopped because I found out my blood pressure was pretty close to hypertension range already, and I didn't have the discipline to control the addiction and only use it sparingly; my use ramped up until I was using it most of my waking time, which felt gross. Chewing gum all the time is kind of a gross habit, and using it that much gave me unpleasant GI effects, like coffee but worse. I'm mildly addicted to caffeine but I have no trouble respecting self-imposed rules like not drinking coffee after 1pm, I found nicotine much more difficult to resist. I lost like 7% body fat and been doing more cardio since then, my BP should be better now (haven't actually checked), I'm not totally against trying again but I'd use patches not gum, it seems more difficult to abuse.
    - jessriedel 5y ago
      Interesting. Nicotine is generally an appetite suppressant, so I'd have thought the weight would go in the other direction. Glad it's working out for you.
fnord77 5y ago
it is quite possible that nicotine is a carcinogen itself and there is no safe form
- amatic 5y ago
  I've read the opposite from gwern - that nicotine is safe, and the carcinogens are mostly in the burning of tobacco products. He tested nicotine as a nootropic, apparently has significant effect.
  - fnord77 5y ago
    from wikipedia > Nicotine can form carcinogenic Tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) through a nitrosation reaction. ... However, nicotine in the mouth and stomach can react to form N-Nitrosonornicotine,[104] a known type 1 carcinogen,[105] suggesting that consumption of non-tobacco forms of nicotine may still play a role in carcinogenesis.
  - jessriedel 5y ago
    I like Gwern's nicotine webpage, but the evidence we have is consistent with nicotine being a carcinogen alone. Indeed, he says so himself in his third footnote.

bitcuration 5y ago

has vaping been out of question?

jessriedel 5y ago
The author said they were embarrassed by gum. Outside of very specific subcultures, it's safe to say they would be much more embarassed by vaping. But sure, vaping will deliver nicotine, and its significantly safer than cigarettes (though we don't know if it's safe).

motohagiography 5y ago

It is a suprisingly powerful drug. I gave up cigarettes over 20 years ago and have zero craving for them, the smell is revolting. Looking back, the craving felt a lot like fasting. However today, I have a cigar a little more than once a month on average, and I can tell the nicotine content affects mood, sleep, and maybe some hormone levels for a day or two after, as much or moreso than most prescriptions I've ever taken. There is extra focus and centeredness under its influence and a kind of diminished neuroticism, which I suppose was what made it "cool." There are other factors on that as well, since who today has an hour of uninterrupted solitude (let alone in good company) to sit and do nothing but contemplate, with the space of your own to temporarily pollute, and afford to spend the kind of money on yourself that a good one costs. It would be hard to separate this mini-vacation from the percieved smart drug effects of nicotine. Cigarettes are evil and cruel in every concievable way, and anyone under their yoke who breaks it deserves support. Fan of OP's interintellect startup as well.

HKH2 5y ago
"diminished neuroticism" - you've reminded me of the link between smoking and schizophrenia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia_and_tobacco_smoking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia_and_tobacco_sm...

dageshi 5y ago

Nicotine seems to vary depending on the delivery mechanism. Cigar (not inhaled) do not seem to be addictive at all for most who use them, more of a hobby. I've used the little Swedish "packets" you slip under your top lip and those are like a habit that's hard to break while you have a supply, they become part of your daily routine but I've never had any withdrawal symptoms from them. Cigarettes by all accounts seem addictive as fuck, I did have one when I was younger, desperately wanted another for about 2 days afterwards, after that the craving subsided I never had another one since.

snusthrowaway 5y ago
Conversely, I have never had any urge for cigarettes. Occasionally, I crave for cigars. Snus, however, I crave roughly daily despite stopping around 6 months ago. During lockdowns my nicotine use via snus got a bit out of hand -- at the peak I spent roughly a puck a day (so like 20x pouches of maybe 14mg nicotine a day). I usually stayed up two days straight and slept for the third. Once I woke up, I could not get out of the bed without one. Once I stopped using when I ran out, I had headaches which felt like they crushed my head and put the world spinning. This continued for maybe 3 days. After 3 months of discontinued use, I tried one of the stronger snus brands while intoxicated -- the ones I would not given a second thought while at my peaks -- I became so overwhelmed in a matter of a dozen seconds that I could not walk, and had to lie down and avoid puking on the spot. And despite stopping, I now have this clear cavity on my right side of mouth with the gums clearly redacted. I only spent snus heavily for roughly three months (which probably masqueraded depression or lack of motivation), albeit, during that time almost at all times and occasionally with multiple pouches. Overall, I have done coffee at great amounts, tried amphetamines and ephedrine, cannabis in most of its forms, some benzos, and self-medicated myself with alcohol, and I must say the physical withdrawals for me have been worst with nicotine, with only benzos taking the lead on the physiological toplist.

greenshackle2 5y ago

I got myself addicted to nicotine gum and I never even smoked. To the point that I was constantly using it. Going through maybe 10-15 2mg gums per day. I used patches and regular non-nicotine gum to quit but I still have the urge, especially when I have difficulty focusing at work, because it does actually seem to help with that.

jessriedel 5y ago
So, no one knows with complete confidence the long-term effects of nicotine alone (i.e., nicotine when taken without all the carcinogens in cigarettes associated with combustion that are not found in nicotine gum). But the evidence we do have suggests it's vastly safer than cigarettes. In fact, I don't even think we know if it's harmful on net. https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine Given the appetite suppression, and the known terrible effects of obesity, it could even be beneficial. You will get addicted to it though.
- greenshackle2 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm not overly worried about it, I've read the gwern page before. I wouldn't have tried the gum if I thought it was nearly as bad as cigarettes. I stopped because I found out my blood pressure was pretty close to hypertension range already, and I didn't have the discipline to control the addiction and only use it sparingly; my use ramped up until I was using it most of my waking time, which felt gross. Chewing gum all the time is kind of a gross habit, and using it that much gave me unpleasant GI effects, like coffee but worse. I'm mildly addicted to caffeine but I have no trouble respecting self-imposed rules like not drinking coffee after 1pm, I found nicotine much more difficult to resist. I lost like 7% body fat and been doing more cardio since then, my BP should be better now (haven't actually checked), I'm not totally against trying again but I'd use patches not gum, it seems more difficult to abuse.
  - jessriedel 5y ago
    Interesting. Nicotine is generally an appetite suppressant, so I'd have thought the weight would go in the other direction. Glad it's working out for you.

fnord77 5y ago

it is quite possible that nicotine is a carcinogen itself and there is no safe form

amatic 5y ago
I've read the opposite from gwern - that nicotine is safe, and the carcinogens are mostly in the burning of tobacco products. He tested nicotine as a nootropic, apparently has significant effect.
- fnord77 5y ago
  from wikipedia > Nicotine can form carcinogenic Tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) through a nitrosation reaction. ... However, nicotine in the mouth and stomach can react to form N-Nitrosonornicotine,[104] a known type 1 carcinogen,[105] suggesting that consumption of non-tobacco forms of nicotine may still play a role in carcinogenesis.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  I like Gwern's nicotine webpage, but the evidence we have is consistent with nicotine being a carcinogen alone. Indeed, he says so himself in his third footnote.