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Perhaps I’m naive but my view is that online advertising should have targeting no better than bus stop ads (coarse geographic) and conversion should ideally not

Perhaps I’m naive but my view is that online advertising should have targeting no better than bus stop ads (coarse geographic) and conversion should ideally not even be measurable. When I buy shoes I prefer to not even say which campaign made me do it (just like the bus stop ad). I find the whole jargon of this post dystopian.

unethical_ban 5y ago
I don't know. It isn't that I think targeted ads are bad. I think it is simply jarring that humans are that quantifiable, and separately, that I am skeptical of the privacy policies of the gatherers of this data. My Instagram feed shows me lots of startup clothing companies for young to middle aged men, and I finally tried some, and damnit if they aren't decent jeans. If we accept that ads are not inherently evil, and we accept that ads (when not manipulative or selling unethical/addictive products) are more beneficial to a recipient if they're relevant, then targeting (if done ethically and stored as anonymously as possible) is a great thing. I find that the ads are actually more straightforward than traditional ads. They literally say "These jeans are stylish, durable and American-made". I didn't sit through 30 seconds of Brett Favre throwing a football to signal that I'm just like him.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  I think they are bad if they use context I didn’t want to provide. I’d be happy to give any website a pretty detailed profile of interests and “cohort” if I knew that’s where it stopped. But I don’t think ads can target ethically and with respect for privacy. I’d love to be proven wrong.
- tfehring 5y ago
  I'm also not opposed to targeting in principle, and in fact I'd love to reach an end state where a company - whether you call it an ad company or otherwise - does 98% of my shopping for me. But I feel like we're in an uncanny valley in which adtechs are hoovering up more data than they'd even need to do that, but with no incentive to push consumers toward products we'll actually be happy with. Facebook is probably better off if your new jeans wear out in a few months, and Amazon can't even be trusted to reliably ship you the products they think they're shipping you, let alone vouch for their quality.
- tweetle_beetle 5y ago
  I don't like this assumption that we all have piles of disposable cash (or credit) - our main concern is the struggle to find the right "fit" for using it and therefore targeted ads are improving our lives. Due to the size of the global economy, there are many more products that fit you than you could ever buy. It can only be considered "a great thing" as a response to an earlier status quo, but it's not one in and of itself. Taken to its logical conclusion, in a world where you can encounter dozens of targeted ads in a day, what happens when every single one you is a fantastic fit for you? It's surely not "a great thing" for mental health to have things you truly desire shown to you at a frequency faster than you can afford them, especially in a world where credit loophole agencies like Klarna prey on the vulnerable. And this isn't even opening the data privacy can of worms which is required to achieve that, or the fact that these platforms are competitive and reward the highest spender for any given perfect fit. At least let's try to stave off the dystopian future for a little while longer and hold on to the notion that consumerism doesn't have to be optimised into ever more efficient workflows. Even if you enjoy shopping, doesn't this take out some of the excitement and satisfaction? How long now before some unknown third party is monitoring your spending habits to deduce your payday, sells that information to another third party that buys data from a smart speaker company which overheard you discussing jeans in a public place and automatically sends a message selling the lead to the highest bidding jeans shop who has the product in stock in the waist size which is available from another this party and your virtual assistant puts an event in your calendar telling you to be at home to receive it?
azinman2 5y ago
I'm guessing you've never tried to start an Internet-based business. Being able to target ads is often your lifeblood of your company. Or have you tried and somehow found a different method?
- ROFISH 5y ago
  I run a company where about 70% of my audience (in 2018 no less, so likely a lot higher now) use adblockers. To me, any amount of search ad spend or similar is pissing money down the drain. For reference, our marketing strategy is opt-in email newsletters, organic social media, the occasional sponsorship of events, and natural word-of-mouth (no incentive). And we've been in business for 12+ years.
  - somedude895 5y ago
    Search ads are very effective and are paid on a per-click basis, so you really can't go wrong with them.
  - dwild 5y ago
    >opt-in email newsletters, Opt-in, or "kinda opt-in"? Or you just don't know and trust whoever publish that newsletters? Seriously newsletters are the most annoying ads I get and by far. So many are not really opt-in, but instead use dark patterns to make you sign up.
    - ROFISH 5y ago
      Fully informed and "Have to click the checkbox" opt-in.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  I absolutely have not. But I don’t think the possibility of buying tracking ads is somehow excused because e.g “you couldn’t start internet businesses otherwise” or even “most of the free content online would disappear”. Targeting doesn’t have to imply tracking or trading in my info. Facebook knows my age and gender, and some of my interests (from groups etc). That should be plenty. That means a company that sells kitchens can’t target people “interested in kitchens” in the sense they have recently searches for it or visited a site of a kitchen manufacturer that told Facebook. They can target people in country X of a certain age. If that doesn’t sell enough kitchens then just close down me kitchen business or buy a bus stop ad but don’t follow me around the internet.
gsnedders 5y ago
Note that plenty of advertising like bus stop ads, especially if there's any QR code, is often tracked for conversion (by having a unique reference code embedded in the URL in the QR code).
jfengel 5y ago
That would make it much harder for me. I run a theater troupe. We do a little bit of Facebook boosting. Our customers are spread thin: there are people who want to see Shakespeare, but they don't cluster in one place. We do use geography in our buying; nobody is going to travel 100 miles to see us. But if I showed it to 1,000 random people even in a 20 mile radius, the odds are that 999 will be completely disinterested, and the 1 remaining person will be doing something else that weekend. On the other hand if I show it to 1,000 people who have shown at least a little interest in theater, or Shakespeare, or literature -- and who have the money to spend $20 on a theater ticket[1] -- maybe I'll find a few people who would actually come. I wouldn't show my ads on a bus stop. It would cost a fortune and probably do no good. I spend $30 or so, and I get a few extra bodies out, because my ads are targeted. This is just an example I happen to be familiar with. Perhaps it's a little too abstruse to be applicable. But it's what I think of whenever I hear people railing about all ads. There are a lot of things for which blanket advertising just wouldn't work. I'm not even trying to turn a profit or pay salaries. I just want to do some good art that people might enjoy. It's worth getting the word out for it, and not pester every single person on the planet about it. ----- [1] I make it as cheap as I can, but theater space costs money.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  But when you show it for 1000 well targeted people, what are you paying? The key to all this is that it’s expensive because they are targeted. If you could show 1M less targeted people for the same money you would show it to the same people. Sure, 999/1000 people would see an ad they weren’t interested in, but that’s inevitable with less intrusive tracking. I also wouldn’t mind being shown a very well targeted theater ad if I had volunteered that info. But if that info is gathered without my consent I just shouldn’t see the ad, and that’s regardless of whether 90% of the free content of the web and a huge number of small businesses die in the process.
  - jfengel 5y ago
    About thirty bucks on Facebook. I couldn't afford a TV ad or billboard or even a bus stop sign.

unethical_ban 5y ago

I don't know. It isn't that I think targeted ads are bad. I think it is simply jarring that humans are that quantifiable, and separately, that I am skeptical of the privacy policies of the gatherers of this data. My Instagram feed shows me lots of startup clothing companies for young to middle aged men, and I finally tried some, and damnit if they aren't decent jeans. If we accept that ads are not inherently evil, and we accept that ads (when not manipulative or selling unethical/addictive products) are more beneficial to a recipient if they're relevant, then targeting (if done ethically and stored as anonymously as possible) is a great thing. I find that the ads are actually more straightforward than traditional ads. They literally say "These jeans are stylish, durable and American-made". I didn't sit through 30 seconds of Brett Favre throwing a football to signal that I'm just like him.

alkonaut 5y ago
I think they are bad if they use context I didn’t want to provide. I’d be happy to give any website a pretty detailed profile of interests and “cohort” if I knew that’s where it stopped. But I don’t think ads can target ethically and with respect for privacy. I’d love to be proven wrong.
tfehring 5y ago
I'm also not opposed to targeting in principle, and in fact I'd love to reach an end state where a company - whether you call it an ad company or otherwise - does 98% of my shopping for me. But I feel like we're in an uncanny valley in which adtechs are hoovering up more data than they'd even need to do that, but with no incentive to push consumers toward products we'll actually be happy with. Facebook is probably better off if your new jeans wear out in a few months, and Amazon can't even be trusted to reliably ship you the products they think they're shipping you, let alone vouch for their quality.
tweetle_beetle 5y ago
I don't like this assumption that we all have piles of disposable cash (or credit) - our main concern is the struggle to find the right "fit" for using it and therefore targeted ads are improving our lives. Due to the size of the global economy, there are many more products that fit you than you could ever buy. It can only be considered "a great thing" as a response to an earlier status quo, but it's not one in and of itself. Taken to its logical conclusion, in a world where you can encounter dozens of targeted ads in a day, what happens when every single one you is a fantastic fit for you? It's surely not "a great thing" for mental health to have things you truly desire shown to you at a frequency faster than you can afford them, especially in a world where credit loophole agencies like Klarna prey on the vulnerable. And this isn't even opening the data privacy can of worms which is required to achieve that, or the fact that these platforms are competitive and reward the highest spender for any given perfect fit. At least let's try to stave off the dystopian future for a little while longer and hold on to the notion that consumerism doesn't have to be optimised into ever more efficient workflows. Even if you enjoy shopping, doesn't this take out some of the excitement and satisfaction? How long now before some unknown third party is monitoring your spending habits to deduce your payday, sells that information to another third party that buys data from a smart speaker company which overheard you discussing jeans in a public place and automatically sends a message selling the lead to the highest bidding jeans shop who has the product in stock in the waist size which is available from another this party and your virtual assistant puts an event in your calendar telling you to be at home to receive it?

azinman2 5y ago

I'm guessing you've never tried to start an Internet-based business. Being able to target ads is often your lifeblood of your company. Or have you tried and somehow found a different method?

ROFISH 5y ago
I run a company where about 70% of my audience (in 2018 no less, so likely a lot higher now) use adblockers. To me, any amount of search ad spend or similar is pissing money down the drain. For reference, our marketing strategy is opt-in email newsletters, organic social media, the occasional sponsorship of events, and natural word-of-mouth (no incentive). And we've been in business for 12+ years.
- somedude895 5y ago
  Search ads are very effective and are paid on a per-click basis, so you really can't go wrong with them.
- dwild 5y ago
  >opt-in email newsletters, Opt-in, or "kinda opt-in"? Or you just don't know and trust whoever publish that newsletters? Seriously newsletters are the most annoying ads I get and by far. So many are not really opt-in, but instead use dark patterns to make you sign up.
  - ROFISH 5y ago
    Fully informed and "Have to click the checkbox" opt-in.
alkonaut 5y ago
I absolutely have not. But I don’t think the possibility of buying tracking ads is somehow excused because e.g “you couldn’t start internet businesses otherwise” or even “most of the free content online would disappear”. Targeting doesn’t have to imply tracking or trading in my info. Facebook knows my age and gender, and some of my interests (from groups etc). That should be plenty. That means a company that sells kitchens can’t target people “interested in kitchens” in the sense they have recently searches for it or visited a site of a kitchen manufacturer that told Facebook. They can target people in country X of a certain age. If that doesn’t sell enough kitchens then just close down me kitchen business or buy a bus stop ad but don’t follow me around the internet.

gsnedders 5y ago

Note that plenty of advertising like bus stop ads, especially if there's any QR code, is often tracked for conversion (by having a unique reference code embedded in the URL in the QR code).

jfengel 5y ago

That would make it much harder for me. I run a theater troupe. We do a little bit of Facebook boosting. Our customers are spread thin: there are people who want to see Shakespeare, but they don't cluster in one place. We do use geography in our buying; nobody is going to travel 100 miles to see us. But if I showed it to 1,000 random people even in a 20 mile radius, the odds are that 999 will be completely disinterested, and the 1 remaining person will be doing something else that weekend. On the other hand if I show it to 1,000 people who have shown at least a little interest in theater, or Shakespeare, or literature -- and who have the money to spend $20 on a theater ticket[1] -- maybe I'll find a few people who would actually come. I wouldn't show my ads on a bus stop. It would cost a fortune and probably do no good. I spend $30 or so, and I get a few extra bodies out, because my ads are targeted. This is just an example I happen to be familiar with. Perhaps it's a little too abstruse to be applicable. But it's what I think of whenever I hear people railing about all ads. There are a lot of things for which blanket advertising just wouldn't work. I'm not even trying to turn a profit or pay salaries. I just want to do some good art that people might enjoy. It's worth getting the word out for it, and not pester every single person on the planet about it. ----- [1] I make it as cheap as I can, but theater space costs money.

alkonaut 5y ago
But when you show it for 1000 well targeted people, what are you paying? The key to all this is that it’s expensive because they are targeted. If you could show 1M less targeted people for the same money you would show it to the same people. Sure, 999/1000 people would see an ad they weren’t interested in, but that’s inevitable with less intrusive tracking. I also wouldn’t mind being shown a very well targeted theater ad if I had volunteered that info. But if that info is gathered without my consent I just shouldn’t see the ad, and that’s regardless of whether 90% of the free content of the web and a huge number of small businesses die in the process.
- jfengel 5y ago
  About thirty bucks on Facebook. I couldn't afford a TV ad or billboard or even a bus stop sign.