4 ms·

When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. Japan has som

by rsj_hn 5y ago

When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. Japan has some pretty high bars and the number of naturalized people is quite small -- about 10,000 per year, and these are primarily Koreans of Japanese descent. The high bar is not the "good moral character" bit (which is also required but that is common) but rather financial stability. So if you are from a wealthy nation and a high earner you will be fine, but that is not the typical immigrant profile, and so for this reason there are very few naturalized immigrants in Japan compared to US or other nations that do not have financial stability as a criteria for naturalization.

riffraff 5y ago
> When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. do they? I always thought it referred to long term residency. E.g. I consider myself an immigrant even tho I do not have the citizenship of the country I live in.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  In English at least, "immigration" and "immigrants", refer to permanently moving to a new country, not long term residency or guest worker programs. I.e. you are intending to never return to your original country. If you are intending to return, then you are a long term resident, but not a permanent resident. e.g. Merriam-Webster: "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence" OED online: "a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country."
  - sixhobbits 5y ago
    This is just playing with grammar. You can live somewhere permanently (in the grammar sense) while on a temporary permit (in the legal sense) and most people who emigrate go through various stages of (legal) temporary permits before being granted permanent residence (eg often requires 5 years of uninterrupted "temporary" residency) or citizenship (often 10-15 years).
  - cedilla 5y ago
    The majority of migrants don't permanently move to a new country. And really, does it make sense to categorize people on their unknowable intention? Especially since this can clash with legal reality. Undocumented migrants sometimes intend to stay permanently, but as soon as immigration laws are enforced, they will leave. And many foreign workers who intend to return to their home country never do so, rendering the distinction moot.
wenc 5y ago
> When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. It depends on how the country defines it, but to "immigrate" doesn't generally mean naturalization. Immigration means to obtain permanent residency (in the U.S., a green card or LPR status; in Canada, Australia, NZ, landed immigrant or permanent resident status; in the UK, indefinitely leave to remain). Permanent residency generally confers most rights of citizenship, apart from a few like the right to hold a passport of that country, to vote (exceptions exist), etc. Naturalization means to obtain full citizenship. It's the step that comes after immigration, and it is optional. Not all immigrants elect to naturalize for various reasons (e.g. wanting to keep original citizenship in cases where dual citizenship is prohibited, tax rules, military service, etc.). Some choose to remain permanent residents forever, and they can. It's their choice. And you're right -- if someone has a temporary status like a foreign worker status (even if it's infinitely renewable), that would be considered neither immigration nor naturalization. I'm not sure how things work in Japan, but it is possible for a country to be easy to immigrate into, but hard to naturalize in. These two things can be simultaneously true. (in other words, easy to get permanent resident status, but hard to get citizenship)
- cedilla 5y ago
  Immigration doesn't imply permanency. Indeed, most migrants don't aim for permanent residency. There is a widespread idea to count permanent migrants only, but in practice, that's impossible to determine in the first place, and has no tangible consequences either. Think about undocumented migrants, who do not have the right to abode, permanent or otherwise. Think about nations that don't offer permanent residency to newly arriving immigrants, or at all. Think about people who already have the right to abode (e.g. a citizen of Ireland in the UK) - are they immigrants without setting foot in the country? Tying migration to a permanent status just doesn't make sense. Indeed, the UN Migration Agency (IOM) defines a migrant as: > any person who is moving or has moved across an international border or within a State away from his/her habitual place of residence, regardless of (1) the person’s legal status; (2) whether the movement is voluntary or involuntary; (3) what the causes for the movement are; or (4) what the length of the stay is.
selimthegrim 5y ago
You probably meant Japanese residents of Korean descent?

by rsj_hn 5y ago

riffraff 5y ago

> When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. do they? I always thought it referred to long term residency. E.g. I consider myself an immigrant even tho I do not have the citizenship of the country I live in.

rsj_hn 5y ago
In English at least, "immigration" and "immigrants", refer to permanently moving to a new country, not long term residency or guest worker programs. I.e. you are intending to never return to your original country. If you are intending to return, then you are a long term resident, but not a permanent resident. e.g. Merriam-Webster: "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence" OED online: "a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country."
- sixhobbits 5y ago
  This is just playing with grammar. You can live somewhere permanently (in the grammar sense) while on a temporary permit (in the legal sense) and most people who emigrate go through various stages of (legal) temporary permits before being granted permanent residence (eg often requires 5 years of uninterrupted "temporary" residency) or citizenship (often 10-15 years).
- cedilla 5y ago
  The majority of migrants don't permanently move to a new country. And really, does it make sense to categorize people on their unknowable intention? Especially since this can clash with legal reality. Undocumented migrants sometimes intend to stay permanently, but as soon as immigration laws are enforced, they will leave. And many foreign workers who intend to return to their home country never do so, rendering the distinction moot.

wenc 5y ago

> When most people say "immigrate", they are not referring to foreign worker status that allows for long term residency, but actual naturalization. It depends on how the country defines it, but to "immigrate" doesn't generally mean naturalization. Immigration means to obtain permanent residency (in the U.S., a green card or LPR status; in Canada, Australia, NZ, landed immigrant or permanent resident status; in the UK, indefinitely leave to remain). Permanent residency generally confers most rights of citizenship, apart from a few like the right to hold a passport of that country, to vote (exceptions exist), etc. Naturalization means to obtain full citizenship. It's the step that comes after immigration, and it is optional. Not all immigrants elect to naturalize for various reasons (e.g. wanting to keep original citizenship in cases where dual citizenship is prohibited, tax rules, military service, etc.). Some choose to remain permanent residents forever, and they can. It's their choice. And you're right -- if someone has a temporary status like a foreign worker status (even if it's infinitely renewable), that would be considered neither immigration nor naturalization. I'm not sure how things work in Japan, but it is possible for a country to be easy to immigrate into, but hard to naturalize in. These two things can be simultaneously true. (in other words, easy to get permanent resident status, but hard to get citizenship)

cedilla 5y ago
Immigration doesn't imply permanency. Indeed, most migrants don't aim for permanent residency. There is a widespread idea to count permanent migrants only, but in practice, that's impossible to determine in the first place, and has no tangible consequences either. Think about undocumented migrants, who do not have the right to abode, permanent or otherwise. Think about nations that don't offer permanent residency to newly arriving immigrants, or at all. Think about people who already have the right to abode (e.g. a citizen of Ireland in the UK) - are they immigrants without setting foot in the country? Tying migration to a permanent status just doesn't make sense. Indeed, the UN Migration Agency (IOM) defines a migrant as: > any person who is moving or has moved across an international border or within a State away from his/her habitual place of residence, regardless of (1) the person’s legal status; (2) whether the movement is voluntary or involuntary; (3) what the causes for the movement are; or (4) what the length of the stay is.

selimthegrim 5y ago

You probably meant Japanese residents of Korean descent?