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I recall visiting the Yangtze river by boat tour around 1997. This was before the dam was built and the place was beautiful. Imagine the grand canyon but it wa

I recall visiting the Yangtze river by boat tour around 1997. This was before the dam was built and the place was beautiful. Imagine the grand canyon but it was covered with lush vegetation. We visited a center where there were models of the three gorges dam would soon to be built. On the tour they said we would be the last tourists to see the Yangtze as it stands, after the dam, many landmarks/settlements would be flooded, and even back then people critiqued how many species of fish would die because they can no longer swim up river to spawn.

morsch 5y ago
FWIW, the dam in question, the Gezhouba Dam, was completed by 1988.
yellow_lead 5y ago
Peter Hessler writes about his experience in Sichuan during the time the three gorges dam was being built [1]. Many people have had to sacrifice a lot for these dams. However, IIRC many receive some form of compensation from the government (adequate or not). [1]https://www.amazon.com/River-Town-Years-Yangtze-P-S/dp/0060855029 https://www.amazon.com/River-Town-Years-Yangtze-P-S/dp/00608...
- samstave 5y ago
  What compensation do the paddlefish get ;-)
  - ioquatix 5y ago
    Extinction :(
    - samstave 5y ago
      They'd like a refund.
  - Andy-AO 5y ago
    Sturgeon itself does not need to get any compensation, it is not human, no human rights. The construction of the dam can bring a lot of immediate benefits, which is insignificant compared with the ecological damage caused, because if the economic development is not good, the environmental pollution will only be more serious, and the phenomenon of survival through predation of wild animals will only be more common.
- whisk 5y ago
  The dam you and he mentioned is Three Gorges Dam built from 1994 to 2003. And the dam in this article, which may related with the extinction of the Chinese paddlefish, is Gezhouba Dam. It was built from 1970 to 1988.
  - yellow_lead 5y ago
    Yes these are separate dams. However, they both have similar effects - flooding of large areas, relocation of people, extinction of species / loss of historical artifacts.
    - russli1993 5y ago
      But there is also significant benefits to these dams. Three gorges dam generates 95 TWh annually. My quick google search shows Finland consumes 82 TWH annually. This amount of energy is generated with no emission of co2. China has no oil and gas, hence if its not for these dams, most of this energy will be generated with coal. How much co2, so2, other particular matter will that generate? How much damage will that have on people's health? How many people will get health problems from that? I was in China in the 90s, I remember how scarce electricity was back then. ACs, heating, home appliances, industrial development, hospitals all require electricity. Without this power, people's lives and economy will not develop. How many people will die of poverty (poverty induces health problems from starvation and malnutrition, poverty causes crime, family and social issues). These dams are also crucial for irrigation. The mass famine in the 60s, one of the core issues is lack of agricultural development and irrigation is crucial for that. Another crucial aspect is flood control. These days significant lives and economic disruptions are avoided because of the extensive set of dams to control flood water. The Yangtze River flood of 1998 resulted total loss of 4150 people, and 180 million people were affected. Around 100,000 square kilometres (25,000,000 acres) were evacuated, and 13.3 million houses were damaged or destroyed. A similar size flood season occurred in 2020 and 2016, the damage resulted was much smaller. You cannot simply ignore all these benefits. The Gezhouba Dam was constructed in 1988s, back then people's understanding of ecology and conservation was poor. And people were starving, economy was so poor that its hard to imagine what it was like back then. I think its not too crazy to think that people would prioritize certain things over others. Today, ecology considerations are very much part of the construction process. As the article also suggested, overfishing is another huge contributor to ecosystem loss. In 60s, the Chinese paddlefish was being fished and sold like cabbages. By the 80s, fisherman would catch very little of the fish. The poor yield pushed some fisherman to use extreme tactics, like electric fishing and explosives, and that causes even more damages to the fish population. Last year, the yangtz protection law was passed. There is a host of actions there but one of it is complete ban of fishing on the yangtz for 10 years. And there are over 280,000 fisherman on the yangtz. There are also lots of government effort to support their livelihoods and transition them to other jobs.http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf464d8ae3aedc66a21dd0.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf4...
- waheoo 5y ago
  There is no amount of money that can compensate the archeological loss from the intentional flooding of these areas. Multiple cradle of civilization level sites were flooded with not enough funding or effort given to excavating these sites thoroughly before flooding.
  - ArnoVW 5y ago
    For those wanting to get an idea of what that means, there is an episode of that institute of of science documentaries, BBC Horizon, that covers the flooding of Zeugma. https://youtu.be/fnY8ATNVYgw https://youtu.be/fnY8ATNVYgw
JimTheMan 5y ago
It's a pity they didn't put in any fish ladders, or perhaps that's too big of an ask on a major Dam project. Anyone here with Dam experience wish to comment?
CobrastanJorji 5y ago
Fun fact, the Three Gorges Dam generates about 112 TWh per year of electricity, which is almost exactly the power consumption of Bitcoin.
- candiodari 5y ago
  Which doesn't matter at all: it's not like the dam wouldn't have been built if there was no Bitcoin, so the implied causal connection is extremely tenuous. Especially since the Three Gorges Dam predates Bitcoin by 2 or 3 decades.
  - RugnirViking 5y ago
    bizzare comment. I don't believe for a second the op decided to imply a connection, nor that any single reader would take that away from reading the comment. They were simply highlighting the relative magnitudes of power using something that us techies are likely to be familliar with, and something that is in the public conciousness recently (the power consumption of bitcoin) Overall, I learned that the dam has an impressively high power production, nothing more.
  - stuaxo 5y ago
    It shows the magnitude of damage that can be caused by generating the amount of electricity used by it.
- strin 5y ago
  Interesting fact. Also all convos lead to bitcoin at some point these days...

morsch 5y ago

FWIW, the dam in question, the Gezhouba Dam, was completed by 1988.

yellow_lead 5y ago

Peter Hessler writes about his experience in Sichuan during the time the three gorges dam was being built [1]. Many people have had to sacrifice a lot for these dams. However, IIRC many receive some form of compensation from the government (adequate or not). [1]https://www.amazon.com/River-Town-Years-Yangtze-P-S/dp/0060855029 https://www.amazon.com/River-Town-Years-Yangtze-P-S/dp/00608...

samstave 5y ago
What compensation do the paddlefish get ;-)
- ioquatix 5y ago
  Extinction :(
  - samstave 5y ago
    They'd like a refund.
- Andy-AO 5y ago
  Sturgeon itself does not need to get any compensation, it is not human, no human rights. The construction of the dam can bring a lot of immediate benefits, which is insignificant compared with the ecological damage caused, because if the economic development is not good, the environmental pollution will only be more serious, and the phenomenon of survival through predation of wild animals will only be more common.
whisk 5y ago
The dam you and he mentioned is Three Gorges Dam built from 1994 to 2003. And the dam in this article, which may related with the extinction of the Chinese paddlefish, is Gezhouba Dam. It was built from 1970 to 1988.
- yellow_lead 5y ago
  Yes these are separate dams. However, they both have similar effects - flooding of large areas, relocation of people, extinction of species / loss of historical artifacts.
  - russli1993 5y ago
    But there is also significant benefits to these dams. Three gorges dam generates 95 TWh annually. My quick google search shows Finland consumes 82 TWH annually. This amount of energy is generated with no emission of co2. China has no oil and gas, hence if its not for these dams, most of this energy will be generated with coal. How much co2, so2, other particular matter will that generate? How much damage will that have on people's health? How many people will get health problems from that? I was in China in the 90s, I remember how scarce electricity was back then. ACs, heating, home appliances, industrial development, hospitals all require electricity. Without this power, people's lives and economy will not develop. How many people will die of poverty (poverty induces health problems from starvation and malnutrition, poverty causes crime, family and social issues). These dams are also crucial for irrigation. The mass famine in the 60s, one of the core issues is lack of agricultural development and irrigation is crucial for that. Another crucial aspect is flood control. These days significant lives and economic disruptions are avoided because of the extensive set of dams to control flood water. The Yangtze River flood of 1998 resulted total loss of 4150 people, and 180 million people were affected. Around 100,000 square kilometres (25,000,000 acres) were evacuated, and 13.3 million houses were damaged or destroyed. A similar size flood season occurred in 2020 and 2016, the damage resulted was much smaller. You cannot simply ignore all these benefits. The Gezhouba Dam was constructed in 1988s, back then people's understanding of ecology and conservation was poor. And people were starving, economy was so poor that its hard to imagine what it was like back then. I think its not too crazy to think that people would prioritize certain things over others. Today, ecology considerations are very much part of the construction process. As the article also suggested, overfishing is another huge contributor to ecosystem loss. In 60s, the Chinese paddlefish was being fished and sold like cabbages. By the 80s, fisherman would catch very little of the fish. The poor yield pushed some fisherman to use extreme tactics, like electric fishing and explosives, and that causes even more damages to the fish population. Last year, the yangtz protection law was passed. There is a host of actions there but one of it is complete ban of fishing on the yangtz for 10 years. And there are over 280,000 fisherman on the yangtz. There are also lots of government effort to support their livelihoods and transition them to other jobs.http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf464d8ae3aedc66a21dd0.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf4...
waheoo 5y ago
There is no amount of money that can compensate the archeological loss from the intentional flooding of these areas. Multiple cradle of civilization level sites were flooded with not enough funding or effort given to excavating these sites thoroughly before flooding.
- ArnoVW 5y ago
  For those wanting to get an idea of what that means, there is an episode of that institute of of science documentaries, BBC Horizon, that covers the flooding of Zeugma. https://youtu.be/fnY8ATNVYgw https://youtu.be/fnY8ATNVYgw

JimTheMan 5y ago

It's a pity they didn't put in any fish ladders, or perhaps that's too big of an ask on a major Dam project. Anyone here with Dam experience wish to comment?

CobrastanJorji 5y ago

Fun fact, the Three Gorges Dam generates about 112 TWh per year of electricity, which is almost exactly the power consumption of Bitcoin.

candiodari 5y ago
Which doesn't matter at all: it's not like the dam wouldn't have been built if there was no Bitcoin, so the implied causal connection is extremely tenuous. Especially since the Three Gorges Dam predates Bitcoin by 2 or 3 decades.
- RugnirViking 5y ago
  bizzare comment. I don't believe for a second the op decided to imply a connection, nor that any single reader would take that away from reading the comment. They were simply highlighting the relative magnitudes of power using something that us techies are likely to be familliar with, and something that is in the public conciousness recently (the power consumption of bitcoin) Overall, I learned that the dam has an impressively high power production, nothing more.
- stuaxo 5y ago
  It shows the magnitude of damage that can be caused by generating the amount of electricity used by it.
strin 5y ago
Interesting fact. Also all convos lead to bitcoin at some point these days...