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Serious question here - not starting a flamewar. Are there any real organizations in China with power that protect the ecosystem and animals there? From an ou

Serious question here - not starting a flamewar. Are there any real organizations in China with power that protect the ecosystem and animals there? From an outsider it seems like they just build whatever they want without any concern for the environment they live in which ultimately will do significant damage to their own human population after the environment collapses and can't support them.

dragonelite 5y ago
The whole article is talking about China attempts to preserve endangered fish species. It mostly talking about how in the 80 and 90s they didn't do those preservation research when building dams. The article also talks that its not only happening in China these old paddlefish species are endangered all over the globe.
- boringg 5y ago
  To be fair you haven't answered my question but stated that there are nascent efforts to preserve endangered fish after the damage is done. I don't doubt there are efforts however I refer to any arm of the government with real power or any institution that isn't related to the government with real power. Agree species are dying everywhere after all we are in an Holocene extinction event. That said it seems to happening at a faster pace in places like India and China with unfettered development.
  - wyattpeak 5y ago
    The distinction you're applying seem to be arbitrary. What makes Chinese efforts nascent but American efforts (where species also continue to go extinct) developed? Most efforts to preserve animals come after the damage is done. That's why we maintain an endangered species list. I'm not going to argue that China is as committed to, or as successful at, the goal as say the US is, but "not as good" is very different from claiming they fundamentally lack something the West possesses.
    - indymike 5y ago
      > What makes Chinese efforts nascent but American efforts (where species also continue to go extinct) developed? Perhaps this isn't about nations, but about 1) how sad it is for such a unique species to be extinct, 2) a cautionary tale. Also, where I live (Indiana, USA) we have a native paddlefish species that was nearly fished to extinction by a ring of criminals that were killing them for their caviar. I wonder if something like that was happening with the Yangtze version? (Article doesn't mention)
      - katbyte 5y ago
        > Also, where I live (Indiana, USA) we have a native paddlefish species that was nearly fished to extinction how are they doing now? recovering?
        indymike 5y ago
        This just happened (well, from 2019 to about a week ago the arrests were made).
    - cptskippy 5y ago
      It's less about pointing out a failure in China and more about understanding. As someone in the US, I know about the EPA and the DOI. I don't however know of such comparable government level agencies in China or any other country. Whenever anyone asks a question about certain countries, the responses are hypercritical, adversarial or defensive regardless of the questioner's intent.
    - boringg 5y ago
      So I haven't actually said anything comparing US to China. I see you want to answer your own question unrelated to mine - which is alright. I simply asked, and continue to ask without anyone being able to answer it: Are there any organizations in China that have any real power to do anything to protect the ecosystems critical to animal life or is it unfettered development >> ecosystem.
      - 5y ago
  - msrenee 5y ago
    It happened in the US already in the same way it's happening in India and China now. The Carolina Parakeet, the Passenger Pigeon, dozens or hundreds of native plants. Shoot, the entire ecosystem known as the Tallgrass Prarie is limited to a few pockets where it used to cover a large section of the Midwest.
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > The article also talks that its not only happening in China these old paddlefish species are endangered all over the globe. What remarkable a looking fish, it looks more like a shark with a very elongated nose. Well, pat-on the-back progress aside of their 'efforts', I feel that this is in-line with not just the CCP's outview on the World, but Humanity in general. Biodiversity be damned (no pun intended) if it stands in the way of short term gain(s). Personally speaking, I think Wildlife and Marine biologists need to collaborate on maintaining these species all over the World in captivity, a real purpose for a zoo if there ever was one, to avoid this problem. I can't stand to see a wolf or a giraffe in a zoo, it makes me sad and I haven't been to one since I was forced to go when I was kid. As an adult I could justify going every 6 months if I knew these served primarily as a way to conserve endangered animals. Pandas being a chief example of it already being done. I have a lot of qualms with zoos in general and places like Sea World, I went to university with a well known marine biology program and the amount of collusion between Sea World and the biology department was rather blatant at times. The lessons we learned from the past 20 years in Tuna farming should serve as a model of what happens when you deplete the Oceans so bad you have to resort to man-made hatcheries for a highly consumed staple--I fear that this species of fish may not have the same recognition and thus a market price for it's survival and thus is deemed insignificant. Despite being a staunch Free Market advoacte, I'm well aware of the inadequacies of market based solutions alone to prevent, let alone, solve environmental setbacks like these and I fear we have run of time or options that ensured Governments could solve these either. It will require a massive uptick in the need of individuals to do this. If social media can topple a career with cancel culture over minor indiscretions, and make corporations apologize for BS things deemed not palatable to 'woke' mob then surely a strong drive to make them accountable for conservation should be possible, too. This being China, I think it's low on the list of atrocities the CCP has committed, even against it's species and this very little will be done to do more than distract from the real issue.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    Just last summer there was major flooding up and down the Yangtze. It used to be that lots of people died from these events, now that they have the river under control it's fine. Calling it simply 'development' obscures the very real human benefits.
- msrenee 5y ago
  "these old paddle fish species" Unless you're including sturgeon in that group, there is now only one surviving species of paddlefish. That one, thanks to heavy conservation efforts, is listed as vulnerable, but not endangered. It's actually legal to sport fish in many states but takes are heavily regulated. The closely related sturgeon species are also struggling.
rsynnott 5y ago
Note that this dam was built in 1970, when no-one was worrying too much about the long-term consequences of dams.
- boringg 5y ago
  Noted. That doesn't change or answer the question though. I am curious if there is a real movement for protection in China with any real power.
mattmaroon 5y ago
You know China is not a democracy right? There’s only one organization in China with any real power and they’re the ones building the dams. The environment collapsing so that it can’t support people is a pretty drastic leap from running certain fish into extinction.
- petre 5y ago
  They Chinese fishing fleet is also overfishing in international waters, so don't expect the CCP to care much about driving fish into extinction. The Soviet fishing fleet also massacred a huge amount of whales just to meet dumb quotas imposed in a centrally planned economy. There was not much real demand for whale meat or oil in the Soviet Union.
  - gadf 5y ago
    But it's big in Japan
- boringg 5y ago
  I am very aware of who runs China. Which is why I asked the question - are there any organizations within China that have any real power. My suspicion is that the CCP has no real effort or interest and the lack of people able to answer with a: Yes the CCP is seriously trying to protect the environment/ecosystem/species through the following things likely speaks to the lack of interest/initiative.
  - mattmaroon 5y ago
    There are no organizations in China that oppose the government openly. At least not for long. The Chinese government has roving vans that execute dissidents and harvest their organs right outside their house. The CCP cares about the environment insofar as it benefits China. They probably do not care about a fish going extinct the way we do.
    - boringg 5y ago
      That sounds highly suspect: "The Chinese government has roving vans that execute dissidents and harvest their organs right outside their house."
markus_zhang 5y ago
So you are speaking about MEE: http://www.mee.gov.cn/ http://www.mee.gov.cn/ Not sure why but they also have an English page: http://english.mee.gov.cn/ http://english.mee.gov.cn/ It is one of the ministries under the State Council. Technically all Ministries are on the same Level so they enjoy equal power. In reality some ministries have more weights (e.g. NDRC apparently have more power than some of the smaller ones) and MEE has recently gained much more power since the elevation of President Xi. The following paragraph shows its power. Quote in Chinese: 组建生态环境部。将环境保护部的职责，国家发展和改革委员会的应对气候变化和减排职责，国土资源部的监督防止地下水污染职责，水利部的编制水功能区划、排污口设置管理、流域水环境保护职责，农业部的监督指导农业面源污染治理职责，国家海洋局的海洋环境保护职责，国务院南水北调工程建设委员会办公室的南水北调工程项目区环境保护职责整合，组建生态环境部，作为国务院组成部门。生态环境部对外保留国家核安全局牌子。不再保留环境保护部。 Explanation: MEE took a lot of power from other ministries and departments: 0 - It originated from the Ministry of Environmental Protection 1 - The responsibility to tackle with climate change and reducing emmision (from NDRC) 2 - The responsibility to monitor underground water contaimnation (from Ministry of Land and Resources) 3 - A bunch of responsibilities regarding water pollution (from Ministry of Water Resources) 4 - The responsibility to guide argricultural pollution (from Ministry of Agriculture) 5 - The responsibility to protect ocean environment (from the State Oceanic Administration) 6 - The responsibility regarding environmental protection in South-to-North Water Diversion (from relevant officials)
- boringg 5y ago
  Thanks! Do you know if they hold power or are they kind of in name only organizations?
  - markus_zhang 5y ago
    Back in the 90s and early 00s (when it was called the Ministry of Environmental Protection) economic development overweighted everything else so it didn't have a lot of power. Now the new Ministry have a lot more power and teeth. But it's difficult to give a quatified answer as I'm not in the circle.
russli1993 5y ago
ccp, national people's congress, the political consultative conference, state state council orgs like Ministry of Ecology and Environment, have environmental researchers, experts and advocates. And throughout the years, they have advocated for ecosystem protection, clean environment (air, water, ground, etc), sustainable development etc. I think this website have all of the environment related laws and regulations. https://www.mee.gov.cn/ywgz/fgbz/fl/ https://www.mee.gov.cn/ywgz/fgbz/fl/ For example, there is national protected animals, protected under Wild Animal Conservation Law. http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=22418&lib=law http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=22418&lib=law Yangtz river protection law. One of the provision grants government power to ban fishing on yangtz and all of its tributary. Current ban is 10 years. http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf464d8ae3aedc66a21dd0.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf4... Regulations of the People's Republic of China on Nature Reserves， http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=12164&lib=law&SearchKeyword http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=12164&lib=law&Se... Law of the People's Republic of China on the Prevention and Control of Atmospheric Pollution http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?lib=law&id=1178&CGid= http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?lib=law&id=1178&CGi... also the constitution of the ccp, the top law within the party, says "The Communist Party of China shall lead the people in building a socialist ecological civilization. It shall strengthen the philosophy underlying ecological civilization that nature should be respected, adapted to, and protected; fully understand that lucid waters and lush mountains are invaluable assets; follow the fundamental national policy of conserving resources and protecting the environment; uphold the principle of prioritizing resource conservation and environmental protection and letting nature restore itself; and take a positive path to development that ensures increased production, higher living standards, and healthy ecosystems. The Party shall strive to build a resource-conserving, environmentally friendly society, implement the strictest possible environmental protection systems, and work to shape spatial layouts, industrial structures, modes of production, and ways of life that are conducive to resource conservation and environmental protection, creating good working and living environments for the people, and ensuring sustainable development for the Chinese nation." my interpretation is that the ccp is at least considering and not totally ignoring the environment. And if you look at banning fishing on the yangtz, transition fisherman to other jobs, pushing EVs, etc. I guess these things come from this principle.

dragonelite 5y ago

The whole article is talking about China attempts to preserve endangered fish species. It mostly talking about how in the 80 and 90s they didn't do those preservation research when building dams. The article also talks that its not only happening in China these old paddlefish species are endangered all over the globe.

boringg 5y ago
To be fair you haven't answered my question but stated that there are nascent efforts to preserve endangered fish after the damage is done. I don't doubt there are efforts however I refer to any arm of the government with real power or any institution that isn't related to the government with real power. Agree species are dying everywhere after all we are in an Holocene extinction event. That said it seems to happening at a faster pace in places like India and China with unfettered development.
- wyattpeak 5y ago
  The distinction you're applying seem to be arbitrary. What makes Chinese efforts nascent but American efforts (where species also continue to go extinct) developed? Most efforts to preserve animals come after the damage is done. That's why we maintain an endangered species list. I'm not going to argue that China is as committed to, or as successful at, the goal as say the US is, but "not as good" is very different from claiming they fundamentally lack something the West possesses.
  - indymike 5y ago
    > What makes Chinese efforts nascent but American efforts (where species also continue to go extinct) developed? Perhaps this isn't about nations, but about 1) how sad it is for such a unique species to be extinct, 2) a cautionary tale. Also, where I live (Indiana, USA) we have a native paddlefish species that was nearly fished to extinction by a ring of criminals that were killing them for their caviar. I wonder if something like that was happening with the Yangtze version? (Article doesn't mention)
    - katbyte 5y ago
      > Also, where I live (Indiana, USA) we have a native paddlefish species that was nearly fished to extinction how are they doing now? recovering?
      - indymike 5y ago
        This just happened (well, from 2019 to about a week ago the arrests were made).
  - cptskippy 5y ago
    It's less about pointing out a failure in China and more about understanding. As someone in the US, I know about the EPA and the DOI. I don't however know of such comparable government level agencies in China or any other country. Whenever anyone asks a question about certain countries, the responses are hypercritical, adversarial or defensive regardless of the questioner's intent.
  - boringg 5y ago
    So I haven't actually said anything comparing US to China. I see you want to answer your own question unrelated to mine - which is alright. I simply asked, and continue to ask without anyone being able to answer it: Are there any organizations in China that have any real power to do anything to protect the ecosystems critical to animal life or is it unfettered development >> ecosystem.
    - 5y ago
- msrenee 5y ago
  It happened in the US already in the same way it's happening in India and China now. The Carolina Parakeet, the Passenger Pigeon, dozens or hundreds of native plants. Shoot, the entire ecosystem known as the Tallgrass Prarie is limited to a few pockets where it used to cover a large section of the Midwest.
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> The article also talks that its not only happening in China these old paddlefish species are endangered all over the globe. What remarkable a looking fish, it looks more like a shark with a very elongated nose. Well, pat-on the-back progress aside of their 'efforts', I feel that this is in-line with not just the CCP's outview on the World, but Humanity in general. Biodiversity be damned (no pun intended) if it stands in the way of short term gain(s). Personally speaking, I think Wildlife and Marine biologists need to collaborate on maintaining these species all over the World in captivity, a real purpose for a zoo if there ever was one, to avoid this problem. I can't stand to see a wolf or a giraffe in a zoo, it makes me sad and I haven't been to one since I was forced to go when I was kid. As an adult I could justify going every 6 months if I knew these served primarily as a way to conserve endangered animals. Pandas being a chief example of it already being done. I have a lot of qualms with zoos in general and places like Sea World, I went to university with a well known marine biology program and the amount of collusion between Sea World and the biology department was rather blatant at times. The lessons we learned from the past 20 years in Tuna farming should serve as a model of what happens when you deplete the Oceans so bad you have to resort to man-made hatcheries for a highly consumed staple--I fear that this species of fish may not have the same recognition and thus a market price for it's survival and thus is deemed insignificant. Despite being a staunch Free Market advoacte, I'm well aware of the inadequacies of market based solutions alone to prevent, let alone, solve environmental setbacks like these and I fear we have run of time or options that ensured Governments could solve these either. It will require a massive uptick in the need of individuals to do this. If social media can topple a career with cancel culture over minor indiscretions, and make corporations apologize for BS things deemed not palatable to 'woke' mob then surely a strong drive to make them accountable for conservation should be possible, too. This being China, I think it's low on the list of atrocities the CCP has committed, even against it's species and this very little will be done to do more than distract from the real issue.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  Just last summer there was major flooding up and down the Yangtze. It used to be that lots of people died from these events, now that they have the river under control it's fine. Calling it simply 'development' obscures the very real human benefits.
msrenee 5y ago
"these old paddle fish species" Unless you're including sturgeon in that group, there is now only one surviving species of paddlefish. That one, thanks to heavy conservation efforts, is listed as vulnerable, but not endangered. It's actually legal to sport fish in many states but takes are heavily regulated. The closely related sturgeon species are also struggling.

rsynnott 5y ago

Note that this dam was built in 1970, when no-one was worrying too much about the long-term consequences of dams.

boringg 5y ago
Noted. That doesn't change or answer the question though. I am curious if there is a real movement for protection in China with any real power.

mattmaroon 5y ago

You know China is not a democracy right? There’s only one organization in China with any real power and they’re the ones building the dams. The environment collapsing so that it can’t support people is a pretty drastic leap from running certain fish into extinction.

petre 5y ago
They Chinese fishing fleet is also overfishing in international waters, so don't expect the CCP to care much about driving fish into extinction. The Soviet fishing fleet also massacred a huge amount of whales just to meet dumb quotas imposed in a centrally planned economy. There was not much real demand for whale meat or oil in the Soviet Union.
- gadf 5y ago
  But it's big in Japan
boringg 5y ago
I am very aware of who runs China. Which is why I asked the question - are there any organizations within China that have any real power. My suspicion is that the CCP has no real effort or interest and the lack of people able to answer with a: Yes the CCP is seriously trying to protect the environment/ecosystem/species through the following things likely speaks to the lack of interest/initiative.
- mattmaroon 5y ago
  There are no organizations in China that oppose the government openly. At least not for long. The Chinese government has roving vans that execute dissidents and harvest their organs right outside their house. The CCP cares about the environment insofar as it benefits China. They probably do not care about a fish going extinct the way we do.
  - boringg 5y ago
    That sounds highly suspect: "The Chinese government has roving vans that execute dissidents and harvest their organs right outside their house."

markus_zhang 5y ago

So you are speaking about MEE: http://www.mee.gov.cn/ http://www.mee.gov.cn/ Not sure why but they also have an English page: http://english.mee.gov.cn/ http://english.mee.gov.cn/ It is one of the ministries under the State Council. Technically all Ministries are on the same Level so they enjoy equal power. In reality some ministries have more weights (e.g. NDRC apparently have more power than some of the smaller ones) and MEE has recently gained much more power since the elevation of President Xi. The following paragraph shows its power. Quote in Chinese: 组建生态环境部。将环境保护部的职责，国家发展和改革委员会的应对气候变化和减排职责，国土资源部的监督防止地下水污染职责，水利部的编制水功能区划、排污口设置管理、流域水环境保护职责，农业部的监督指导农业面源污染治理职责，国家海洋局的海洋环境保护职责，国务院南水北调工程建设委员会办公室的南水北调工程项目区环境保护职责整合，组建生态环境部，作为国务院组成部门。生态环境部对外保留国家核安全局牌子。不再保留环境保护部。 Explanation: MEE took a lot of power from other ministries and departments: 0 - It originated from the Ministry of Environmental Protection 1 - The responsibility to tackle with climate change and reducing emmision (from NDRC) 2 - The responsibility to monitor underground water contaimnation (from Ministry of Land and Resources) 3 - A bunch of responsibilities regarding water pollution (from Ministry of Water Resources) 4 - The responsibility to guide argricultural pollution (from Ministry of Agriculture) 5 - The responsibility to protect ocean environment (from the State Oceanic Administration) 6 - The responsibility regarding environmental protection in South-to-North Water Diversion (from relevant officials)

boringg 5y ago
Thanks! Do you know if they hold power or are they kind of in name only organizations?
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  Back in the 90s and early 00s (when it was called the Ministry of Environmental Protection) economic development overweighted everything else so it didn't have a lot of power. Now the new Ministry have a lot more power and teeth. But it's difficult to give a quatified answer as I'm not in the circle.

russli1993 5y ago

ccp, national people's congress, the political consultative conference, state state council orgs like Ministry of Ecology and Environment, have environmental researchers, experts and advocates. And throughout the years, they have advocated for ecosystem protection, clean environment (air, water, ground, etc), sustainable development etc. I think this website have all of the environment related laws and regulations. https://www.mee.gov.cn/ywgz/fgbz/fl/ https://www.mee.gov.cn/ywgz/fgbz/fl/ For example, there is national protected animals, protected under Wild Animal Conservation Law. http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=22418&lib=law http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=22418&lib=law Yangtz river protection law. One of the provision grants government power to ban fishing on yangtz and all of its tributary. Current ban is 10 years. http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf464d8ae3aedc66a21dd0.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202103/8cccd3c25caf4... Regulations of the People's Republic of China on Nature Reserves， http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=12164&lib=law&SearchKeyword http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=12164&lib=law&Se... Law of the People's Republic of China on the Prevention and Control of Atmospheric Pollution http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?lib=law&id=1178&CGid= http://www.lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?lib=law&id=1178&CGi... also the constitution of the ccp, the top law within the party, says "The Communist Party of China shall lead the people in building a socialist ecological civilization. It shall strengthen the philosophy underlying ecological civilization that nature should be respected, adapted to, and protected; fully understand that lucid waters and lush mountains are invaluable assets; follow the fundamental national policy of conserving resources and protecting the environment; uphold the principle of prioritizing resource conservation and environmental protection and letting nature restore itself; and take a positive path to development that ensures increased production, higher living standards, and healthy ecosystems. The Party shall strive to build a resource-conserving, environmentally friendly society, implement the strictest possible environmental protection systems, and work to shape spatial layouts, industrial structures, modes of production, and ways of life that are conducive to resource conservation and environmental protection, creating good working and living environments for the people, and ensuring sustainable development for the Chinese nation." my interpretation is that the ccp is at least considering and not totally ignoring the environment. And if you look at banning fishing on the yangtz, transition fisherman to other jobs, pushing EVs, etc. I guess these things come from this principle.