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I have been living in Sweden for 7 years, I am ready to change it for any English speaking country. Do not take these as a recommendation on where to settle.

I have been living in Sweden for 7 years, I am ready to change it for any English speaking country. Do not take these as a recommendation on where to settle. You will be wildly baffled. Social culture is more important than social welfare. EDIT : For those that claim X people speak English just fine, I recommend a new metric "Number of English speaking tables at pubs in their top cities"

cpach 5y ago
As someone born and raised here, may I ask what it was you didn’t like?
- mrisoli 5y ago
  Not OP but I worked in Sweden for about 9 months before moving on, here's my take: Maybe related to the local culture, AFAICT Swedes in general avoid conflict and whenever I questioned something at a meeting I was acknowledged and then the issue was quietly dismissed, no one wants to change anything, review processes or engage in a discussion to make things better, people will hear you, not argue back, and quietly move on, I much preferred environments where people were respectful but ultimately entered open discussions where it feels like you can learn more from each other. Similarly, everyone in Sweden is very nice, up to a point where it's way too impolite not to be nice, everyone was very nice to me and I felt very welcomed and integrated and then I saw everyone was playing corporate chess in the background and complaining about me to my managers for reasons I'm yet to comprehend. Ultimately I left Sweden because I didn't find it the right fit for me for several reasons combined, climate is of course not the best, salaries are not high compared to the cost of living you get in other European cities. The fact that I didn't enjoy my working environment there was just extra. I only had one short lived working experience in the city so it might have been an odd case.
  - mclightning 5y ago
    > then I saw everyone was playing corporate chess in the background and complaining about me to my managers for reasons I'm yet to comprehend. Exactly! and with safety net they have, they're able to afford to play political games without the risk of losing their job. I put years of effort into building products only to be discredited because I didn't pay attention on politics & just focused on building stuff. Then there is also favoritism. They tend to stick with each other. They sometimes openly hire their past-colleagues/friends. reference; I worked at a couple corporations here, some of the biggest ones.
- mclightning 5y ago
  There are so many things. I am re-writing this answer for 3rd time in hopes of expressing myself in a succinct manner. I can write pages about it, but I will intentionally cut it short here. Because a lot of the experiences I had are very emotional & vulnerable to me. I wouldn't feel comfortable some random commenter coming and justifying it in all different angles. There is a HUGE segregation problem in Sweden. Instead of sharing personal anecdotes, I would like to give you an idea how you can observe it. Look around within your Swedish circles, how many expats/immigrants do you have? how many English-speaking ones? Go to a park or a pub, and look around; how many English-speaking tables do you see? Do you observe some ethnical barrier between the tables? I can barely say I have Swedish friends. I throw parties all the time, I get people from all different nationalities; spanish, italian, french, german. Yet, living in Sweden, I always ask myself "where are the Swedes?". We are not invited to their parties, but they're not even showing up to nomad/expat communities. Swedish acquaintances (friends) I have; I only see them 2-3 times a year. In the time, I have been here for 7 years, number of times I have been invited to Swedish homes is less than 5. I indirectly heard; one friend excluded me from a dinner that was to introduce me to their cousin who is also nerdy. Because his girlfriend was uncomfortable with speaking English. Again, I repeat, these are only some examples. Because once you get anecdotal, people tend to get stuck on specifics and act pedantic.
  - numbers_guy 5y ago
    I have lived in the Netherlands and in Germany and experienced the same issues. The natives will tell you that it is due to the language. The language is surely a huge part of the problem but the cultures are also themselves insular. And in any case having to achieve fluency in the local language just to have some semblance of a normal life is too much to ask, imo; not a good deal for expats. The EU really oversold the who freedom of movement thing. It's never really going to be like the US.
    - mclightning 5y ago
      %100 agreed. It has been really challenging figuring this out myself over years when reality contradicts mainstream opinion. Scandinavia, Amsterdam, Berlin etc.; are doing a huge PR campaign to attract foreign talent with "we speak English here, it's fine"... It is all BS. They're slowly becoming more transparent about it, not out of honesty, but because of the rising push from right-wing/populist politics.
trainsplanes 5y ago
You'll find countless anglos all over the internet who'd gladly drop everything if they could live in Sweden. The grass is always greener.
- mclightning 5y ago
  They should definitely give it a try and see for themselves. I plan to give the alternative a try. Life is not worth living on with "what ifs"
numbers_guy 5y ago
I agree. For me native English speaking and number of annual sunlight hours are the two metrics I care about.
- mclightning 5y ago
  Indeed. It is very important. When you do not speak the native language; the first question always will be "Where are you from?"...then the prejudice that comes with it.
hirenj 5y ago
My theory is that there is a strong pressure towards uniformity in these countries (Extreme Janteloven in Denmark). This is often marked out as a reason for their success, however I suspect that the strong affinity biases (to use a loaded term) ensure that the countries lose out in exploring opportunities for innovation in the long run. What’s left is a focus on economic management, politicians whose main job is to maintain the status quo, and a low appetite for reform. Which I guess is fine for everyone if the money keeps rolling in, but is dispiriting for anyone that wants to try their hand at making something new. I’m happy to be pointed to links on how Nordics are hothouses for innovation (as opposed to just applying a known business model to a new market), as I would love to have the wrong end of the stick on this!
- Zitrax 5y ago
  Might not be exactly what you are looking for but just throwing it out there; Sweden often ranks high on some innovation metrics, like the Global Innovation Index: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2020/se.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2020/se.p....
- Swedeaway 5y ago
  Janteloven is mostly a political talking point. The text itself is being a hundred year old curiosity. Scandinavia have traditionally (in modern history) conformed not because you had to but because most people lived similar lives. When you have similar education, housing and work environment most people are similar even though you might be appreciate different things. There are for example many metal band from the Nordics. Go back a hundred years and that wasn't true. In fact 15%+ of swedes left for the US at one point. The Nordic countries are known for their Social Democracy where reforms are everything. That of course isn't true anymore, but there isn't much saying that conformity inhibits progress. In most cases you have to get to some good place before you can go somewhere else. That said, today Sweden is mostly a terrible place for any kind of knowledge work since the housing market is so screwed. Seems like these comments aren't going through though so... guess that was a waste much like Hacker News.

cpach 5y ago

As someone born and raised here, may I ask what it was you didn’t like?

mrisoli 5y ago
Not OP but I worked in Sweden for about 9 months before moving on, here's my take: Maybe related to the local culture, AFAICT Swedes in general avoid conflict and whenever I questioned something at a meeting I was acknowledged and then the issue was quietly dismissed, no one wants to change anything, review processes or engage in a discussion to make things better, people will hear you, not argue back, and quietly move on, I much preferred environments where people were respectful but ultimately entered open discussions where it feels like you can learn more from each other. Similarly, everyone in Sweden is very nice, up to a point where it's way too impolite not to be nice, everyone was very nice to me and I felt very welcomed and integrated and then I saw everyone was playing corporate chess in the background and complaining about me to my managers for reasons I'm yet to comprehend. Ultimately I left Sweden because I didn't find it the right fit for me for several reasons combined, climate is of course not the best, salaries are not high compared to the cost of living you get in other European cities. The fact that I didn't enjoy my working environment there was just extra. I only had one short lived working experience in the city so it might have been an odd case.
- mclightning 5y ago
  > then I saw everyone was playing corporate chess in the background and complaining about me to my managers for reasons I'm yet to comprehend. Exactly! and with safety net they have, they're able to afford to play political games without the risk of losing their job. I put years of effort into building products only to be discredited because I didn't pay attention on politics & just focused on building stuff. Then there is also favoritism. They tend to stick with each other. They sometimes openly hire their past-colleagues/friends. reference; I worked at a couple corporations here, some of the biggest ones.
mclightning 5y ago
There are so many things. I am re-writing this answer for 3rd time in hopes of expressing myself in a succinct manner. I can write pages about it, but I will intentionally cut it short here. Because a lot of the experiences I had are very emotional & vulnerable to me. I wouldn't feel comfortable some random commenter coming and justifying it in all different angles. There is a HUGE segregation problem in Sweden. Instead of sharing personal anecdotes, I would like to give you an idea how you can observe it. Look around within your Swedish circles, how many expats/immigrants do you have? how many English-speaking ones? Go to a park or a pub, and look around; how many English-speaking tables do you see? Do you observe some ethnical barrier between the tables? I can barely say I have Swedish friends. I throw parties all the time, I get people from all different nationalities; spanish, italian, french, german. Yet, living in Sweden, I always ask myself "where are the Swedes?". We are not invited to their parties, but they're not even showing up to nomad/expat communities. Swedish acquaintances (friends) I have; I only see them 2-3 times a year. In the time, I have been here for 7 years, number of times I have been invited to Swedish homes is less than 5. I indirectly heard; one friend excluded me from a dinner that was to introduce me to their cousin who is also nerdy. Because his girlfriend was uncomfortable with speaking English. Again, I repeat, these are only some examples. Because once you get anecdotal, people tend to get stuck on specifics and act pedantic.
- numbers_guy 5y ago
  I have lived in the Netherlands and in Germany and experienced the same issues. The natives will tell you that it is due to the language. The language is surely a huge part of the problem but the cultures are also themselves insular. And in any case having to achieve fluency in the local language just to have some semblance of a normal life is too much to ask, imo; not a good deal for expats. The EU really oversold the who freedom of movement thing. It's never really going to be like the US.
  - mclightning 5y ago
    %100 agreed. It has been really challenging figuring this out myself over years when reality contradicts mainstream opinion. Scandinavia, Amsterdam, Berlin etc.; are doing a huge PR campaign to attract foreign talent with "we speak English here, it's fine"... It is all BS. They're slowly becoming more transparent about it, not out of honesty, but because of the rising push from right-wing/populist politics.

trainsplanes 5y ago

You'll find countless anglos all over the internet who'd gladly drop everything if they could live in Sweden. The grass is always greener.

mclightning 5y ago
They should definitely give it a try and see for themselves. I plan to give the alternative a try. Life is not worth living on with "what ifs"

numbers_guy 5y ago

I agree. For me native English speaking and number of annual sunlight hours are the two metrics I care about.

mclightning 5y ago
Indeed. It is very important. When you do not speak the native language; the first question always will be "Where are you from?"...then the prejudice that comes with it.

hirenj 5y ago

My theory is that there is a strong pressure towards uniformity in these countries (Extreme Janteloven in Denmark). This is often marked out as a reason for their success, however I suspect that the strong affinity biases (to use a loaded term) ensure that the countries lose out in exploring opportunities for innovation in the long run. What’s left is a focus on economic management, politicians whose main job is to maintain the status quo, and a low appetite for reform. Which I guess is fine for everyone if the money keeps rolling in, but is dispiriting for anyone that wants to try their hand at making something new. I’m happy to be pointed to links on how Nordics are hothouses for innovation (as opposed to just applying a known business model to a new market), as I would love to have the wrong end of the stick on this!

Zitrax 5y ago
Might not be exactly what you are looking for but just throwing it out there; Sweden often ranks high on some innovation metrics, like the Global Innovation Index: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2020/se.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2020/se.p....
Swedeaway 5y ago
Janteloven is mostly a political talking point. The text itself is being a hundred year old curiosity. Scandinavia have traditionally (in modern history) conformed not because you had to but because most people lived similar lives. When you have similar education, housing and work environment most people are similar even though you might be appreciate different things. There are for example many metal band from the Nordics. Go back a hundred years and that wasn't true. In fact 15%+ of swedes left for the US at one point. The Nordic countries are known for their Social Democracy where reforms are everything. That of course isn't true anymore, but there isn't much saying that conformity inhibits progress. In most cases you have to get to some good place before you can go somewhere else. That said, today Sweden is mostly a terrible place for any kind of knowledge work since the housing market is so screwed. Seems like these comments aren't going through though so... guess that was a waste much like Hacker News.