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My life goal was to attend one of these elite universities. I desired to work at companies such as Google or Apple. After graduating from the Czech Technical U

by vletal 5y ago

My life goal was to attend one of these elite universities. I desired to work at companies such as Google or Apple. After graduating from the Czech Technical University I realized that 1. I am much less special then I thought 2. There is much more hard working focused average people then the few talented superstars, both usually achieving the same 3. Surprisingly many of the exceptionally smart people in my social bubble, some of them graduated from the best universities in the world, "left the system" and focus on doing creative small thing's in their everyday life, instead of pursuing their parents dreams 4. Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair 5. I will do my best to teach my kinds to strive for understanding, a love for beauty and a complexity of the world, instead of focusing on grades and stuff 6. The two guys I knew, who attended Oxf. and Camb. were both fired because they were more talk then action. Not a representative sample though. Just ruining my illusion.

runawaybottle 5y ago
#3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Take your average bootcamper, they usually rack up a huge bill majoring in something in college (often a literal dream major), then somehow field a 17k check to just waltz over to tech when they need an office job finally. Not everyone can do this. You have to be really lucky to play games like that and still be fine. The same goes for ‘going off to start my own food truck’. These options don’t exist for people that can only afford one solid go at this.
- js8 5y ago
  > #3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Just to clarify, Czech Technical University is free (for Czech citizens) - I also graduated there. I understand what you're saying, but I am somehow repulsed by the idea that such a system is considered a "privilege". It doesn't have to be a privilege. If you don't have good public universities in your country, you should consider getting involved in politics.
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    My point was mostly centered around freedom. Everyone knows the rules of the game. Those who can’t toy around, play the game straight and narrow (good grades, stay focused on one concentration, and hope you picked well). It’s a luxury to try one thing or another, no matter the cost (cash and time), and still land in an ideal situation as life progresses.
- vletal 5y ago
  #5 - I think that grading is not a good feedback for many disadvantaged kids and their parents. I was being told that without good grades I will not land a good job. This kind of advice is worthless for a 12yo and not really true. Having a good attitude towards learning is an universally more applicable and could lead to a thriving society when applied generally.
  - olau 5y ago
    I completely agree. And that's why I'm sending my children to a Waldorf school without grading.
varispeed 5y ago
Regarding 6. sometimes companies, especially start-ups hire those people not for their abilities, but to be able to tell investors they hire top uni educated workforce. They are more for PR than actual work. Sometimes it is frustrating, if they get paid the same as people who actually do work.
- vletal 5y ago
  You made me remember how my boss boasted having top talent (meaning 2 out of 50) of Cambridge and UCL graduates in the company.
- pm90 5y ago
  Ugh this has become common in Silicon Valley. “We have a brilliant team of engineers who previously worked at FAANGUberAirBnB”…it’s sickening. So is what the companies say about their board members and their C suite. I guess it could just be a reflection of facts but I fear this will lead to future startups hiring purely on this sort of credentialisms.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    There is nothing wrong with using branding as a heuristic. Everyone does it when they prefer buying one brand over another. People do not have enough time or information to make fully informed decisions about each and every thing, including other people.
    - pm90 5y ago
      There is a lot wrong with credentialism. Branding is fine for products. We already have rampant credentialism based on University pedigree and this appears to extend that to careers.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Human labor is a product too, in this context. Credentialing is a consequence of people having to make decisions with limited resources. There is no reality where it will not exist, in some form or another. It existed before Google/Apple/Facebook, and it will exist after as long as it is advantageous to try and filter what you are buying.
WalterBright 5y ago
> Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair It's always going to be unfair. Attempts to fix it always result in some other unfairness. The real thing that works is freedom, i.e. not having the law artificially holding you back. Instead of being consumed by envy of others, you can make your own life better.
- HN-is-stupid 5y ago
  On queue, here's Walter to tell everybody to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Shut the fuck up, would you?
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  That sounds rather defeatist. Is it impossible to make work, life, or social structure more fair? I doubt you think that.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    The US Constitution says nothing about things being fair. It talks a lot about rights, though, which is what freedom is about. Note that we have a right to equal treatment under the law, but that is not the same thing as a right to fair treatment.
    - mrpopo 5y ago
      And the US isn't a good example of a country where people have a fair chance at success in life IMO.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Poor people immigrated to the US, people with nothing but a suitcase. The US has seen the most spectacular rise from poverty to wealth ever seen in history. In WW1, for example, the German soldiers knew they had lost when the Americans arrived, well equipped, tall, and fat with food. The Japanese soldiers had a similar reaction when facing GIs in WW2. Of course, with free markets and prosperity, the Germans and Japanese have since caught up. (In WW2, the US was able to fight two major wars simultaneously, and supply the allies, and move all that stuff overseas. An incredible achievement, only possible from free markets and the wealth produced by them.)
Maven911 5y ago
I went to a country top school and I learnt the exact same lessons but with a jaded view of the world that comes with it :)
jdmichal 5y ago
I had a teacher in high school that liked to dole out life advice. Even looking back decades later, most of it was actually pretty good. One of them was: You can be smart -or- hard-working and do fine anywhere. But you will always be bested by those who are smart -and- hard working. > The two guys I knew, who attended Oxf. and Camb. were both fired because they were more talk then action. Talk is easy but action is hard. There's a chance they never actually had to "put up or shut up" before in their life. And if that's true, there's going to be a strong aversion to actually taking action because that's when they might actually fail -- potentially for the first time in their life.
jiveturkey 5y ago
#5 Don't be too firm in the belief that you yourself learned this in spite of your experience. Perhaps you learned it because of. We tend to appreciate and yearn for the things we don't have, the things we are too busy doing "work" to enjoy. It does sound "better" to not worry about what -- now -- seems unimportant, but if your kids will grow up in capitalist society, it is critical that they have a focus on competing. Success is doled out in a pareto distribution. If you aren't already starting from the top, you have a very, very long uphill climb. Which will get worse. It's hard to enjoy the beauty of the world on an artist's salary. #6 Getting fired isn't necessarily failure. These guys certainly have fallbacks. I'm sure they've learned from the firings. Maybe at their next role they will be superstars due to this experience? In summary I think you are unfairly diminishing the value of an Oxford or other elite education. Partly or mostly because of the disillusionment. But it's not just about the academic/education part of the experience. Actually that's the least important part. Maybe when they were founded, it was quite important. Nowadays the internet gives us so much access to information that filtering it is more important than being spoon fed it. That doesn't mean elite universities aren't very important social signals and don't convey unfair advantages.

by vletal 5y ago

runawaybottle 5y ago

#3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Take your average bootcamper, they usually rack up a huge bill majoring in something in college (often a literal dream major), then somehow field a 17k check to just waltz over to tech when they need an office job finally. Not everyone can do this. You have to be really lucky to play games like that and still be fine. The same goes for ‘going off to start my own food truck’. These options don’t exist for people that can only afford one solid go at this.

js8 5y ago
> #3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Just to clarify, Czech Technical University is free (for Czech citizens) - I also graduated there. I understand what you're saying, but I am somehow repulsed by the idea that such a system is considered a "privilege". It doesn't have to be a privilege. If you don't have good public universities in your country, you should consider getting involved in politics.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  My point was mostly centered around freedom. Everyone knows the rules of the game. Those who can’t toy around, play the game straight and narrow (good grades, stay focused on one concentration, and hope you picked well). It’s a luxury to try one thing or another, no matter the cost (cash and time), and still land in an ideal situation as life progresses.
vletal 5y ago
#5 - I think that grading is not a good feedback for many disadvantaged kids and their parents. I was being told that without good grades I will not land a good job. This kind of advice is worthless for a 12yo and not really true. Having a good attitude towards learning is an universally more applicable and could lead to a thriving society when applied generally.
- olau 5y ago
  I completely agree. And that's why I'm sending my children to a Waldorf school without grading.

varispeed 5y ago

Regarding 6. sometimes companies, especially start-ups hire those people not for their abilities, but to be able to tell investors they hire top uni educated workforce. They are more for PR than actual work. Sometimes it is frustrating, if they get paid the same as people who actually do work.

vletal 5y ago
You made me remember how my boss boasted having top talent (meaning 2 out of 50) of Cambridge and UCL graduates in the company.
pm90 5y ago
Ugh this has become common in Silicon Valley. “We have a brilliant team of engineers who previously worked at FAANGUberAirBnB”…it’s sickening. So is what the companies say about their board members and their C suite. I guess it could just be a reflection of facts but I fear this will lead to future startups hiring purely on this sort of credentialisms.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  There is nothing wrong with using branding as a heuristic. Everyone does it when they prefer buying one brand over another. People do not have enough time or information to make fully informed decisions about each and every thing, including other people.
  - pm90 5y ago
    There is a lot wrong with credentialism. Branding is fine for products. We already have rampant credentialism based on University pedigree and this appears to extend that to careers.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Human labor is a product too, in this context. Credentialing is a consequence of people having to make decisions with limited resources. There is no reality where it will not exist, in some form or another. It existed before Google/Apple/Facebook, and it will exist after as long as it is advantageous to try and filter what you are buying.

WalterBright 5y ago

> Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair It's always going to be unfair. Attempts to fix it always result in some other unfairness. The real thing that works is freedom, i.e. not having the law artificially holding you back. Instead of being consumed by envy of others, you can make your own life better.

HN-is-stupid 5y ago
On queue, here's Walter to tell everybody to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Shut the fuck up, would you?
TchoBeer 5y ago
That sounds rather defeatist. Is it impossible to make work, life, or social structure more fair? I doubt you think that.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  The US Constitution says nothing about things being fair. It talks a lot about rights, though, which is what freedom is about. Note that we have a right to equal treatment under the law, but that is not the same thing as a right to fair treatment.
  - mrpopo 5y ago
    And the US isn't a good example of a country where people have a fair chance at success in life IMO.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Poor people immigrated to the US, people with nothing but a suitcase. The US has seen the most spectacular rise from poverty to wealth ever seen in history. In WW1, for example, the German soldiers knew they had lost when the Americans arrived, well equipped, tall, and fat with food. The Japanese soldiers had a similar reaction when facing GIs in WW2. Of course, with free markets and prosperity, the Germans and Japanese have since caught up. (In WW2, the US was able to fight two major wars simultaneously, and supply the allies, and move all that stuff overseas. An incredible achievement, only possible from free markets and the wealth produced by them.)

Maven911 5y ago

I went to a country top school and I learnt the exact same lessons but with a jaded view of the world that comes with it :)

jdmichal 5y ago

I had a teacher in high school that liked to dole out life advice. Even looking back decades later, most of it was actually pretty good. One of them was: You can be smart -or- hard-working and do fine anywhere. But you will always be bested by those who are smart -and- hard working. > The two guys I knew, who attended Oxf. and Camb. were both fired because they were more talk then action. Talk is easy but action is hard. There's a chance they never actually had to "put up or shut up" before in their life. And if that's true, there's going to be a strong aversion to actually taking action because that's when they might actually fail -- potentially for the first time in their life.

jiveturkey 5y ago

#5 Don't be too firm in the belief that you yourself learned this in spite of your experience. Perhaps you learned it because of. We tend to appreciate and yearn for the things we don't have, the things we are too busy doing "work" to enjoy. It does sound "better" to not worry about what -- now -- seems unimportant, but if your kids will grow up in capitalist society, it is critical that they have a focus on competing. Success is doled out in a pareto distribution. If you aren't already starting from the top, you have a very, very long uphill climb. Which will get worse. It's hard to enjoy the beauty of the world on an artist's salary. #6 Getting fired isn't necessarily failure. These guys certainly have fallbacks. I'm sure they've learned from the firings. Maybe at their next role they will be superstars due to this experience? In summary I think you are unfairly diminishing the value of an Oxford or other elite education. Partly or mostly because of the disillusionment. But it's not just about the academic/education part of the experience. Actually that's the least important part. Maybe when they were founded, it was quite important. Nowadays the internet gives us so much access to information that filtering it is more important than being spoon fed it. That doesn't mean elite universities aren't very important social signals and don't convey unfair advantages.