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This behavior can all be explained with the threat the Russian state still poses to the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If I were a small country afraid of

This behavior can all be explained with the threat the Russian state still poses to the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If I were a small country afraid of a larger one I would also try to find me a big brother. We can only hope that Putin will fall one day.

tored 5y ago
Russia is a much smaller threat than the Soviet Union, if bases was not needed during the Cold War, they are definitely not needed now.
- mike_d 5y ago
  Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. Putin is going to die in the next 20 years and create a massive power vacuum. What you'll end up with is a dozen or so "rightful heirs" with some level of control over the military and nuclear arsenals.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    > Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. There are a lot of states which are criminal enterprises, US included. There is really no reason for a country like Danemark to bend to US .
    - G3rn0ti 5y ago
      Well, Denmark is a member of NATO which is dominated by the US. As sb else argued deciding what weapons to buy and from whom has strong political inclinations. If Denmark would buy their equipment from Russia they couldn’t stay with the NATO in the long run.
      - hulitu 5y ago
        Buying weapons is one thing. Giving data about your country and your citizens to another country is something terrible. When i buy a TV from you, you don't get the right to spy on my family. (i know samsung, google and other companies would dissagree)
  - mmmmmbop 5y ago
    By what definition is Russia a nation state?
    - seszett 5y ago
      I think that term is used in the US to mean basically "country". It's often used for multinational states, so I don't think it has to be taken literally.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Russia is effectively a country powerful enough to want sovereignity but powerless to be able to enforce its will outside even in its immediate borders (compare to the US which enforces its will globally). Putin is a strongman that aside from keeping local "oligarchs" happy, has raised incredibly Russian's GDP and economy from when he got in power, and reverted the "sell everything to the highest foreign bidder" course that Yeltsin was praised for. That's the problem with Putin, not his rule, that annoys the west - which is also why they never have a problem with allies that do the same or worse. Pinochet was celebrated by the west, and accomondated by the UK until his last days, for example. Ditto for rich journalist-killing oil heirs, and so on.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - tored 5y ago
    Which country is the most likely to fall apart within the next 20 years based on current affairs, US or Russia?
ghostDancer 5y ago
Beware with that. We don't know if there are even worse options than Putin.Things can always get worse or crazier. BTW Spain also bought F35s. It's not just the Russian menace ,vassal states have to comply with master.
supergirl 5y ago
so it's better to lose sovereignty now to the US than take the risk of a hypothetical Russian invasion? all these countries that have US bases in them are practically invaded without resistance. the US is friendly now but in 30 years who knows? imagine US being in a very tough situation. it's a no brainer for them to say "America first" and take whatever resources they can take from anywhere they can. look at Turkey, specifically about F35. they got cut off from it by the US on a whim. they spent a lot of money on the F35 probably, instead of investing in their own fighter program and now they got nothing.
- Sevastopol 5y ago
  > look at Turkey, specifically about F35. they got cut off from it by the US on a whim. Not really "on a whim." The implications/consequences of purchasing and using the S-400 were clear. It was a clear choice made by Turkey and the decision cost the US much more than Turkey ever invested in the program anyways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially-kicked-out-of-f-35-program/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially...
- Grustaf 5y ago
  The risk of a Russian invasion is close to zero, has been for a while. It's more about wanting to be friends with the big super power, and frankly about our leaders being personally coopted.
coldtea 5y ago
There's literally no threat from the Russian state to the neighboring Scandinavian countries - aside from that played to sell protection and arms. Russia is no USSR, and has nothing to do with the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If anything, it's the opposite: the neighboring countries, Scandinavian or not, as used as a proxy pressure to Russia.
- thefounder 5y ago
  Right...but if you look at Ukraine you see a different reality
  - coldtea 5y ago
    If I look Ukraine I see a country with an old rivalry with Russia, which the US stepped on to use as another proxy against it in the area. I also see a country where the legitimate, voted for, goverment was overthrown by "orange revolution" style riots led by bona-fied neonazis and celebrated/sponsored by foreign powers. It's also a country whose an area has 60% Russian ethnicity population.
    - thefounder 5y ago
      >> If I look Ukraine I see a country with an old rivalry with Russia, which the US stepped on to use as another proxy against it in the area. Or you could see a country fed up with Russia's influence/politics that chose a different direction. >> It's also a country whose an area has 60% Russian ethnicity population. Wtf is this supposed to mean? Should the US send an army of "patriots" and start a civil war in Tatarstan?
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >Or you could see a country fed up with Russia's influence/politics that chose a different direction. I would have seen that, if they haven't historically sized with Nazism, and the democratically elected government wasn't toppled by neonazis just now. >Wtf is this supposed to mean? Should the US send an army of "patriots" and start a civil war in Tatarstan? Does Tatarstan has some area with a large citizenry of American descent, and has an anti-American government that looks down on them have been established in the country? Was part of Tatarstan historically part of US too, for centuries even? If so, they'd certainly be justified to do so, yes, especially in that area. Then again, they they do it anyway, wherever they like, not in places they have actual borders with and a historical population of fellow ethnic Americans to protect, but 10s of thousands of miles away from their borders, where they have no history and no reason to be there, plundering and living hell-holes of civil war and destruction on their way out.
tclover 5y ago
wtf... What did Russia do to the Scandinavians? Why are you always afraid of Russia?
- coldtea 5y ago
  The "independent" media tell them so.
- widforss 5y ago
  They took Finland.
  - tclover 5y ago
    who took what
    - widforss 5y ago
      Russia annexed Finland as war reparations after the Finnish war. Sweden had problems with Russia well before that, but I'd say that most of the modern Scandinavian russophobia stems from this event.
      - tclover 5y ago
        Well yes, but guess who annexed it first from Russia? (yes it was Sweden, if you want to talk history)
        CRConrad 5y ago
        "From Russia"??? How? It had never been part of Russia.
        widforss 5y ago
        Finland was part of Sweden since 1249. What are you talking about?
  - wsc981 5y ago
bitcharmer 5y ago
> If I were a small country afraid of a larger one I would also try to find me a big brother. USA and other world powers honour treaties only when it serves them. If you think they would aid an ally in the time of need just look at how they honoured the Vienna treaty and helped Ukraine when it was invaded. Or how the UK abandoned Poland in 1939 (yes, they declared war on Germany and that was it). Alliance/military treaties are worth as much as the piece of paper they are written on.

tored 5y ago

Russia is a much smaller threat than the Soviet Union, if bases was not needed during the Cold War, they are definitely not needed now.

mike_d 5y ago
Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. Putin is going to die in the next 20 years and create a massive power vacuum. What you'll end up with is a dozen or so "rightful heirs" with some level of control over the military and nuclear arsenals.
- hulitu 5y ago
  > Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. There are a lot of states which are criminal enterprises, US included. There is really no reason for a country like Danemark to bend to US .
  - G3rn0ti 5y ago
    Well, Denmark is a member of NATO which is dominated by the US. As sb else argued deciding what weapons to buy and from whom has strong political inclinations. If Denmark would buy their equipment from Russia they couldn’t stay with the NATO in the long run.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      Buying weapons is one thing. Giving data about your country and your citizens to another country is something terrible. When i buy a TV from you, you don't get the right to spy on my family. (i know samsung, google and other companies would dissagree)
- mmmmmbop 5y ago
  By what definition is Russia a nation state?
  - seszett 5y ago
    I think that term is used in the US to mean basically "country". It's often used for multinational states, so I don't think it has to be taken literally.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Russia is effectively a country powerful enough to want sovereignity but powerless to be able to enforce its will outside even in its immediate borders (compare to the US which enforces its will globally). Putin is a strongman that aside from keeping local "oligarchs" happy, has raised incredibly Russian's GDP and economy from when he got in power, and reverted the "sell everything to the highest foreign bidder" course that Yeltsin was praised for. That's the problem with Putin, not his rule, that annoys the west - which is also why they never have a problem with allies that do the same or worse. Pinochet was celebrated by the west, and accomondated by the UK until his last days, for example. Ditto for rich journalist-killing oil heirs, and so on.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tored 5y ago
  Which country is the most likely to fall apart within the next 20 years based on current affairs, US or Russia?

ghostDancer 5y ago

Beware with that. We don't know if there are even worse options than Putin.Things can always get worse or crazier. BTW Spain also bought F35s. It's not just the Russian menace ,vassal states have to comply with master.

supergirl 5y ago

so it's better to lose sovereignty now to the US than take the risk of a hypothetical Russian invasion? all these countries that have US bases in them are practically invaded without resistance. the US is friendly now but in 30 years who knows? imagine US being in a very tough situation. it's a no brainer for them to say "America first" and take whatever resources they can take from anywhere they can. look at Turkey, specifically about F35. they got cut off from it by the US on a whim. they spent a lot of money on the F35 probably, instead of investing in their own fighter program and now they got nothing.

Sevastopol 5y ago
> look at Turkey, specifically about F35. they got cut off from it by the US on a whim. Not really "on a whim." The implications/consequences of purchasing and using the S-400 were clear. It was a clear choice made by Turkey and the decision cost the US much more than Turkey ever invested in the program anyways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially-kicked-out-of-f-35-program/ https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially...
Grustaf 5y ago
The risk of a Russian invasion is close to zero, has been for a while. It's more about wanting to be friends with the big super power, and frankly about our leaders being personally coopted.

coldtea 5y ago

There's literally no threat from the Russian state to the neighboring Scandinavian countries - aside from that played to sell protection and arms. Russia is no USSR, and has nothing to do with the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If anything, it's the opposite: the neighboring countries, Scandinavian or not, as used as a proxy pressure to Russia.

thefounder 5y ago
Right...but if you look at Ukraine you see a different reality
- coldtea 5y ago
  If I look Ukraine I see a country with an old rivalry with Russia, which the US stepped on to use as another proxy against it in the area. I also see a country where the legitimate, voted for, goverment was overthrown by "orange revolution" style riots led by bona-fied neonazis and celebrated/sponsored by foreign powers. It's also a country whose an area has 60% Russian ethnicity population.
  - thefounder 5y ago
    >> If I look Ukraine I see a country with an old rivalry with Russia, which the US stepped on to use as another proxy against it in the area. Or you could see a country fed up with Russia's influence/politics that chose a different direction. >> It's also a country whose an area has 60% Russian ethnicity population. Wtf is this supposed to mean? Should the US send an army of "patriots" and start a civil war in Tatarstan?
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >Or you could see a country fed up with Russia's influence/politics that chose a different direction. I would have seen that, if they haven't historically sized with Nazism, and the democratically elected government wasn't toppled by neonazis just now. >Wtf is this supposed to mean? Should the US send an army of "patriots" and start a civil war in Tatarstan? Does Tatarstan has some area with a large citizenry of American descent, and has an anti-American government that looks down on them have been established in the country? Was part of Tatarstan historically part of US too, for centuries even? If so, they'd certainly be justified to do so, yes, especially in that area. Then again, they they do it anyway, wherever they like, not in places they have actual borders with and a historical population of fellow ethnic Americans to protect, but 10s of thousands of miles away from their borders, where they have no history and no reason to be there, plundering and living hell-holes of civil war and destruction on their way out.

tclover 5y ago

wtf... What did Russia do to the Scandinavians? Why are you always afraid of Russia?

coldtea 5y ago
The "independent" media tell them so.
widforss 5y ago
They took Finland.
- tclover 5y ago
  who took what
  - widforss 5y ago
    Russia annexed Finland as war reparations after the Finnish war. Sweden had problems with Russia well before that, but I'd say that most of the modern Scandinavian russophobia stems from this event.
    - tclover 5y ago
      Well yes, but guess who annexed it first from Russia? (yes it was Sweden, if you want to talk history)
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        "From Russia"??? How? It had never been part of Russia.
      - widforss 5y ago
        Finland was part of Sweden since 1249. What are you talking about?
- wsc981 5y ago

bitcharmer 5y ago

> If I were a small country afraid of a larger one I would also try to find me a big brother. USA and other world powers honour treaties only when it serves them. If you think they would aid an ally in the time of need just look at how they honoured the Vienna treaty and helped Ukraine when it was invaded. Or how the UK abandoned Poland in 1939 (yes, they declared war on Germany and that was it). Alliance/military treaties are worth as much as the piece of paper they are written on.