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The article is about Mexican cartels taking the fight to the police. As a South African, I worry that our crime levels probably get more attention than they de

The article is about Mexican cartels taking the fight to the police. As a South African, I worry that our crime levels probably get more attention than they deserve. The are certainly not much more than any other country. Even on platforms like HN, a few people watch a few videos and see a few social media posts. Conclude the country must be rife with violent crime and proceed to happily spread the word, even when no one asked or whether it's relevant to the topic. South africa is not a police state. Surveillance and obsessing about would-be crimes is not on the agenda. Police respond to crime and act accordingly. Just like everywhere else.

Sacho 5y ago
It's difficult to compare crime statistics due to the nature of what is criminalized being different, but the numbers for South Africa are stark enough for this to not matter. Here's a report from the SA police on crime for 2020 - https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/421424/south-africa-crime-stats-2020-everything-you-need-to-know/ https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/421424/south-afri... I can see that there were 22k murders on a population of about 60 million. I couldn't find USA crime statistics for 2020, which has seen a surge of murders; but the 2019 statistics show 19k murders on a population of over 300 million. Even taking the increase into account, that's a factor difference of x4-5. Here's wikipedia's page on intentional homicide rate by country - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... SA's rate of 36 for 2018 is only surpassed by countries in Central America, like Venezuela and Honduras. The US's rate for 2018 is 5.
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  For comparison the USA... Therein lies my problem. You are going to compare one of the wealthiest, most powerful countries in human history, with South Africa?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Sacho 5y ago
    Umm okay. Which country do you want me to compare it with? How about some from Africa? SA - 36 CAR - 20 DR Congo - 13.5 Uganda - 10.4 Nigeria - 10 How about some poor countries from Europe? Ukraine - 6.1 Bulgaria - 1.3 War-torn countries in Asia? Iraq - 10 Afghanistan - 6.6
    - vagrantJin 5y ago
      Hoorah. But what does this have to do with the Topic discussed about Mexican Cartel operations against the police? Is it relevant? This is not the right thread for discourse about SA. We shall leave that for the appropriate platform/post.
Red_Tarsius 5y ago
>The are certainly not much more than any other country. I appreciate your naivete but we have to face the truth. The homicide[+] rate of South Africa (as of 2018) is 36.40. For comparison, Afghanistan is 6.6. The US sits at 4.96. Most of Europe is below 3. And that's just the kiling part. South Africa is notorious for its rampant sexual violence. [++] [+] Within the broad range of violent deaths, the core element of intentional homicide is the complete liability of the direct perpetrator, which thus excludes killings directly related to war or conflicts, self-inflicted death (suicide), killings due to legal interventions or justifiable killings (such as self-defence), and those deaths caused when the perpetrator was reckless or negligent but did not intend to take a human life (non-intentional homicide). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... (2018) [++] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#South%20Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#South%20Africa (2010)
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  This isnt the right thread to wax lyrical about your skill in linking wikipedia articles for crime stats. Its about cartels on Mexico taking the fight to the police. My point was an aside to OP seeming fascination of including South African crime when it isn't relevant. Wait for the right post and we shall discuss at length about the dangers of painting pictures with mere quantitative analysis.
odiroot 5y ago
Not trying to offend any party here but the violence in Mexico seems more organised, targeted but brutal and extreme. The violence in ZA seems more random, more opportunity crime and more about property than people. At least this is how media show it. I may be wrong here.
- Sacho 5y ago
  One of the most jarring things about violence in SA is that the crimes are usually property related, but there seems to be a complete disregard for life by the perpetrators. Robbers will quite often gun down their victims or security, even if they're not trying to actively resist. I don't really know what the cause for this is.

Sacho 5y ago

It's difficult to compare crime statistics due to the nature of what is criminalized being different, but the numbers for South Africa are stark enough for this to not matter. Here's a report from the SA police on crime for 2020 - https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/421424/south-africa-crime-stats-2020-everything-you-need-to-know/ https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/421424/south-afri... I can see that there were 22k murders on a population of about 60 million. I couldn't find USA crime statistics for 2020, which has seen a surge of murders; but the 2019 statistics show 19k murders on a population of over 300 million. Even taking the increase into account, that's a factor difference of x4-5. Here's wikipedia's page on intentional homicide rate by country - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... SA's rate of 36 for 2018 is only surpassed by countries in Central America, like Venezuela and Honduras. The US's rate for 2018 is 5.

vagrantJin 5y ago
For comparison the USA... Therein lies my problem. You are going to compare one of the wealthiest, most powerful countries in human history, with South Africa?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Sacho 5y ago
  Umm okay. Which country do you want me to compare it with? How about some from Africa? SA - 36 CAR - 20 DR Congo - 13.5 Uganda - 10.4 Nigeria - 10 How about some poor countries from Europe? Ukraine - 6.1 Bulgaria - 1.3 War-torn countries in Asia? Iraq - 10 Afghanistan - 6.6
  - vagrantJin 5y ago
    Hoorah. But what does this have to do with the Topic discussed about Mexican Cartel operations against the police? Is it relevant? This is not the right thread for discourse about SA. We shall leave that for the appropriate platform/post.

Red_Tarsius 5y ago

>The are certainly not much more than any other country. I appreciate your naivete but we have to face the truth. The homicide[+] rate of South Africa (as of 2018) is 36.40. For comparison, Afghanistan is 6.6. The US sits at 4.96. Most of Europe is below 3. And that's just the kiling part. South Africa is notorious for its rampant sexual violence. [++] [+] Within the broad range of violent deaths, the core element of intentional homicide is the complete liability of the direct perpetrator, which thus excludes killings directly related to war or conflicts, self-inflicted death (suicide), killings due to legal interventions or justifiable killings (such as self-defence), and those deaths caused when the perpetrator was reckless or negligent but did not intend to take a human life (non-intentional homicide). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... (2018) [++] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#South%20Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#South%20Africa (2010)

vagrantJin 5y ago
This isnt the right thread to wax lyrical about your skill in linking wikipedia articles for crime stats. Its about cartels on Mexico taking the fight to the police. My point was an aside to OP seeming fascination of including South African crime when it isn't relevant. Wait for the right post and we shall discuss at length about the dangers of painting pictures with mere quantitative analysis.

odiroot 5y ago

Not trying to offend any party here but the violence in Mexico seems more organised, targeted but brutal and extreme. The violence in ZA seems more random, more opportunity crime and more about property than people. At least this is how media show it. I may be wrong here.

Sacho 5y ago
One of the most jarring things about violence in SA is that the crimes are usually property related, but there seems to be a complete disregard for life by the perpetrators. Robbers will quite often gun down their victims or security, even if they're not trying to actively resist. I don't really know what the cause for this is.