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That is cynical nonsense. Europe could have taken care of its own security. Exit NATO and build a European defense alliance not made into a tool for American as

That is cynical nonsense. Europe could have taken care of its own security. Exit NATO and build a European defense alliance not made into a tool for American aspirations for world domination. Europe has IMO much cleaner goals. European nations don’t keep 800 military bases around the world and massive spying operations.

fsloth 5y ago
I’m presuming we are using EU and ”Europe” to mean roughly the same thing in this discussion (France, Germany, and bunch of smaller states nobody remembers the full list of). Tongue in cheek. It’s not nonsense, it’s the current situation. I am not saying Europe would not have the capability to do the things you said theoretically. Pragmatically there is no such capability at the moment. EU is a trade and subsidies -body at the moment. Security is handled by individual member states and by Nato. The problem is there is no geopolitcal credible entity called ”Europe” - just a bunch of member states. To gauge EU:s capability level in security at the moment - take the latest Belorussian stunt. Imagine what the US response would have been if KGB had hijacked a plane flying from Miami to New York.
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  That's an interesting thought experiment. To make it a bit more analogous, posit that Cuba forced a US Puerto Rico-bound aircraft to land in Havana in order to arrest a Cuban journalist. What do you think the US response would have been?
  - fsloth 5y ago
    Puerto Rico is an interesting choice given many US citizen apparently don't consider it part of US proper (given apparently puerto ricoans are weirdly considered 'immigrants'). I chose mainland cities to evoke the "proper" expected outrage level given both Athens and Vilnius are (supposedly) major european cities. Your example, of course, is much closer to the percieved outrage level. I have no idea how US would specifically react, but the response likely would have been chosen to a) discourage future actions of the sort and b) to appease angry voters. Also, Cuba is already quite cordoned off, while Belarus has been part of the international community (they got to co-host Hockey wordl championships 2021). The EU response felt like "as a geopolitical entity, what is the bare minimum effort to save our diplomatic face". The lack of voter interest in EU is most critical, I think. I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter. Which means, for all purposes, it's obvious the voting public has no "global eu consciousness" and hence EU is after this again geopolitically that much less credible IMHO.
    - SSLy 5y ago
      >I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter Could it be because majority of citizens don't use English as their native language / the one used to talk politics?
      - fsloth 5y ago
        Let me rephrase that a bit - I am a citizen of an EU member state (Finland) - and there was very little discussion of any sort except theoretical pondering on what this means from political theory point of view. Very little worry or outrage. Kidnapping citizens of EU fellow member states is obviously not considered very important.
- tored 5y ago
  EU has a similar article as the NATO article 5 common defense clause. What EU lacks is offensive overseas operation support, but EU actually doesn’t need that. It is wild fantasy from the most extreme EU supporters who want to build a US replica. What is the biggest threat to EU/Europe today? Definitely not Russia. Russia is just finishing the Nordstream2 pipeline, sanctions just lifted by the Biden administration, that will increase the capacity of the already existing pipeline between Russia and Germany. Russia wants to sell natural gas to many European countries. What we are going to see the next few years is the opposite, a closer integration between Russia and EU economies, especially between Russia and Germany.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > What EU lacks is offensive overseas operation support, but EU actually doesn’t need that. It is wild fantasy from the most extreme EU supporters who want to build a US replica. You could just as well say "Not wanting it is a wild fantasy from the most extreme RT supporters who don't care if the EU is overrun by dictatorships on its eastern borders". > What is the biggest threat to EU/Europe today? Definitely not Russia. Russia is just finishing the Nordstream2 pipeline, Precisely that is probably the biggest threat to EU/Europe today. > sanctions just lifted by the Biden administration, Maybe Unca Joe really is going senile. > that will increase the capacity of the already existing pipeline between Russia and Germany. Russia wants to sell natural gas to many European countries. Yes, it wants to have them all... > What we are going to see the next few years is the opposite, a closer integration between Russia and EU economies, ...by the balls -- not just, but of course: > especially between Russia and Germany.
    - tored 5y ago
      If it is important to protect eastern borders against being overrun by dictatorships how come European NATO members does not fulfill their 2% GDP military spending goal? Or is that Russia's fault? Why does EU sanction Poland, one of the few NATO members that does fulfill its 2% goal and have beefed up it's military against potential Russian aggression, or is that Russia's fault too? Was it Swedish politicians that downsized the Swedish military so much that it now only can defend one place in Sweden for a week (en-veckas-försvaret, ~ one week defense) or was i Putin? Was it Germany's chancellor Angela Merkel who opened the EU borders in 2015, which directly lead to a number of terrorist attacks, or was it Putin who did that? Was it NATO and EU that toppled Libya's dictator Gaddafi, which created a terrorist hotbed just across the Mediterranean, or was it Russia? If you know the answers to these questions you also know what the biggest threat is.
dijit 5y ago
The political appetite among EU citizens for an EU army (at least from my understanding) is not there. One of the leading brexiteer cries was: "The EU wants to make an Army", so that should tell you that the concept is greatly disliked since it's a core argument _against the EU itself_. I live in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here. How do you explain to someone who doesn't like NATO and the concept of the EU that they should join an EU army?
- kreeben 5y ago
  "in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here" That does not ring true to me. Care to back up that claim with a source?
  - dijit 5y ago
    I could cite the rise of Sverigedemokraterna which has an anti-eu slant. https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results-migration-far-right-neurotica/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results... But I live in Malmo and see stickers popping up against the EU, I hear from the Swedish workers who have replaced the electrics and plastered the walls in my apartment about how bad the EU is and that Britain did the right thing (I'm british, which is why they came out with it). I mean, "SWEXIT" is definitely something on the rise. https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bilda-ny-frihandelsunion/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bi... But maybe this is not in Stockholm or the other major cities, I would even say Malmo itself does not have an appetite for breaking up with the EU, but the surrounding Skane region definitely has a stronger anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment. But that was true for Brexit too, London was quite opposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Greater_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kin...
    - kreeben 5y ago
      The rise of Sverigedemokraterna is not proof of your initial claim that anti-EU sentiment is on the rise. "SWEXIT" This is the first time I've heard this term. Is it on the rise? I see no proof of it. Your link to Expressen news outlet is an opinion piece and does not prove your original claim.
deleted 5y ago
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markus_zhang 5y ago
No it's almost impossible within the current political framework. Controlling European countries through espionage and other dark means was initiated from the late 40s (Operation Gladio) and there is none, I mean literally none who could get away from it. Of course, unless you choose to revolutionize and destroy the old political framework.

fsloth 5y ago

I’m presuming we are using EU and ”Europe” to mean roughly the same thing in this discussion (France, Germany, and bunch of smaller states nobody remembers the full list of). Tongue in cheek. It’s not nonsense, it’s the current situation. I am not saying Europe would not have the capability to do the things you said theoretically. Pragmatically there is no such capability at the moment. EU is a trade and subsidies -body at the moment. Security is handled by individual member states and by Nato. The problem is there is no geopolitcal credible entity called ”Europe” - just a bunch of member states. To gauge EU:s capability level in security at the moment - take the latest Belorussian stunt. Imagine what the US response would have been if KGB had hijacked a plane flying from Miami to New York.

mekkkkkk 5y ago
That's an interesting thought experiment. To make it a bit more analogous, posit that Cuba forced a US Puerto Rico-bound aircraft to land in Havana in order to arrest a Cuban journalist. What do you think the US response would have been?
- fsloth 5y ago
  Puerto Rico is an interesting choice given many US citizen apparently don't consider it part of US proper (given apparently puerto ricoans are weirdly considered 'immigrants'). I chose mainland cities to evoke the "proper" expected outrage level given both Athens and Vilnius are (supposedly) major european cities. Your example, of course, is much closer to the percieved outrage level. I have no idea how US would specifically react, but the response likely would have been chosen to a) discourage future actions of the sort and b) to appease angry voters. Also, Cuba is already quite cordoned off, while Belarus has been part of the international community (they got to co-host Hockey wordl championships 2021). The EU response felt like "as a geopolitical entity, what is the bare minimum effort to save our diplomatic face". The lack of voter interest in EU is most critical, I think. I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter. Which means, for all purposes, it's obvious the voting public has no "global eu consciousness" and hence EU is after this again geopolitically that much less credible IMHO.
  - SSLy 5y ago
    >I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter Could it be because majority of citizens don't use English as their native language / the one used to talk politics?
    - fsloth 5y ago
      Let me rephrase that a bit - I am a citizen of an EU member state (Finland) - and there was very little discussion of any sort except theoretical pondering on what this means from political theory point of view. Very little worry or outrage. Kidnapping citizens of EU fellow member states is obviously not considered very important.
tored 5y ago
EU has a similar article as the NATO article 5 common defense clause. What EU lacks is offensive overseas operation support, but EU actually doesn’t need that. It is wild fantasy from the most extreme EU supporters who want to build a US replica. What is the biggest threat to EU/Europe today? Definitely not Russia. Russia is just finishing the Nordstream2 pipeline, sanctions just lifted by the Biden administration, that will increase the capacity of the already existing pipeline between Russia and Germany. Russia wants to sell natural gas to many European countries. What we are going to see the next few years is the opposite, a closer integration between Russia and EU economies, especially between Russia and Germany.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > What EU lacks is offensive overseas operation support, but EU actually doesn’t need that. It is wild fantasy from the most extreme EU supporters who want to build a US replica. You could just as well say "Not wanting it is a wild fantasy from the most extreme RT supporters who don't care if the EU is overrun by dictatorships on its eastern borders". > What is the biggest threat to EU/Europe today? Definitely not Russia. Russia is just finishing the Nordstream2 pipeline, Precisely that is probably the biggest threat to EU/Europe today. > sanctions just lifted by the Biden administration, Maybe Unca Joe really is going senile. > that will increase the capacity of the already existing pipeline between Russia and Germany. Russia wants to sell natural gas to many European countries. Yes, it wants to have them all... > What we are going to see the next few years is the opposite, a closer integration between Russia and EU economies, ...by the balls -- not just, but of course: > especially between Russia and Germany.
  - tored 5y ago
    If it is important to protect eastern borders against being overrun by dictatorships how come European NATO members does not fulfill their 2% GDP military spending goal? Or is that Russia's fault? Why does EU sanction Poland, one of the few NATO members that does fulfill its 2% goal and have beefed up it's military against potential Russian aggression, or is that Russia's fault too? Was it Swedish politicians that downsized the Swedish military so much that it now only can defend one place in Sweden for a week (en-veckas-försvaret, ~ one week defense) or was i Putin? Was it Germany's chancellor Angela Merkel who opened the EU borders in 2015, which directly lead to a number of terrorist attacks, or was it Putin who did that? Was it NATO and EU that toppled Libya's dictator Gaddafi, which created a terrorist hotbed just across the Mediterranean, or was it Russia? If you know the answers to these questions you also know what the biggest threat is.

dijit 5y ago

The political appetite among EU citizens for an EU army (at least from my understanding) is not there. One of the leading brexiteer cries was: "The EU wants to make an Army", so that should tell you that the concept is greatly disliked since it's a core argument _against the EU itself_. I live in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here. How do you explain to someone who doesn't like NATO and the concept of the EU that they should join an EU army?

kreeben 5y ago
"in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here" That does not ring true to me. Care to back up that claim with a source?
- dijit 5y ago
  I could cite the rise of Sverigedemokraterna which has an anti-eu slant. https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results-migration-far-right-neurotica/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results... But I live in Malmo and see stickers popping up against the EU, I hear from the Swedish workers who have replaced the electrics and plastered the walls in my apartment about how bad the EU is and that Britain did the right thing (I'm british, which is why they came out with it). I mean, "SWEXIT" is definitely something on the rise. https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bilda-ny-frihandelsunion/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bi... But maybe this is not in Stockholm or the other major cities, I would even say Malmo itself does not have an appetite for breaking up with the EU, but the surrounding Skane region definitely has a stronger anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment. But that was true for Brexit too, London was quite opposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Greater_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kin...
  - kreeben 5y ago
    The rise of Sverigedemokraterna is not proof of your initial claim that anti-EU sentiment is on the rise. "SWEXIT" This is the first time I've heard this term. Is it on the rise? I see no proof of it. Your link to Expressen news outlet is an opinion piece and does not prove your original claim.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

markus_zhang 5y ago

No it's almost impossible within the current political framework. Controlling European countries through espionage and other dark means was initiated from the late 40s (Operation Gladio) and there is none, I mean literally none who could get away from it. Of course, unless you choose to revolutionize and destroy the old political framework.