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I really dislike how USA bullies people trying to buy Russian S400 anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems. S400s are effective against their best aircrafts. An

by truth_ 5y ago

I really dislike how USA bullies people trying to buy Russian S400 anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems. S400s are effective against their best aircrafts. And they don't want other countries to have it. So they threaten sanction and people have to play along.

alkonaut 5y ago
It's a complex issue. It's not just money involved, buying a long term "system" means you are reliant on relations for spares and support. This puts into question the willingness of (e.g.) Turkey as a NATO country to upset Russia. NATO is a defense pact, which in reality means a military industrial pact too. There is no way to entirely separate the manufacturing and acquisition of military gear, from the treaty where it's supposed to be used.
- KMag 5y ago
  Wasn't there also at one point a proposal for a F-35 maintenance facility in Turkey? Having that kind of access to F-35 information and being potentially beholden to a manufacturer of the main threat to the F-35 sounds like a huge intelligence leak just waiting to happen.
- buran77 5y ago
  The US does its best to prevent allies from having any kind of military technology outside of US control, particularly if it's effective. Allegiances aren't set in stone and the US won't take the chance to see that tech used against them. [0] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-system-to-include-jamming-capability https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-sys... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internationaleducationnews https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internation...
adriancr 5y ago
I don't see how it's a good idea to buy air defense from a potential enemy you have... the country NATO was created to defend against... It will surely protect you against them and not be used to sabotage/spy on you.
- truth_ 5y ago
  India is not a part of NATO. India was one of the leaders of the Non-Alignment Movement, but did certainly bend a little towards the USSR. USSR and post-USSR Russia has solidly backed India in many issues. When the US imposed bans on export of vaccine raw materials even after a month of assurances of special waivers for India, Russia agreed to supply and produce Sputnik V in a heartbeat. Historically, here's one example- when US Ally Pakistan was committing a genocide and ethnic cleansing on its own people [0] (now the country of Bangladesh), and India was funding and training the rebels, the US sent Task Force 74 to deter India. And Russia sent cruisers, destroyer, and a nuclear armed submarine to balance the situation. India won the war of 1971. And the independent country of Bangladesh was born. See- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_74 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_74 [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    We also openly supported white colonisers in India like the Portuguese in Goa and the French in Pondicherry (just like Vietnam etc). We even voted against Indians at the UN in favor of white colonial rule of Goa (and even forced client states through coups/arms twisting to vote along). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Goa#UN_attempts_at_ceasefire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Goa#UN_attempts_...
  - adriancr 5y ago
    India is not part of NATO... I only meant the comment for NATO countries. For India it does makes a lot of sense.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  The nato was created against the sowjetunion. There is no more sowjetunion. And it is a bit frustrating, that we are in a new cold war right now, because people were too lazy(on both sides) to adjust after the wall came down. So yes, russia is an enemy again, hurey and sure it makes not much sense letting them gather direct data to boosten their air defence missiles. But this works in both ways, no? If you have the S400 - you can study extensivly its weaknessess. Apart from that, china seems a bigger threat.
1cvmask 5y ago
Having an AAAD (A2/AD) defense system poses a threat to bombing planes, missiles etc.. Defensive systems raise the cost of an invasion or bombing runs. You can threaten countries easily or in an easier manner when we deny them systems like the S400. Would we have bombed Vietnam, Laos and everywhere else so indiscriminately if the had proper defensive systems in place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon
_tik_ 5y ago
US bullied Indonesia to buy US weapons too. And Indonesia is not a NATO member. Most of those weapons from US is overpriced and overkill for Indonesia need. https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/03/13/trump-threat-spurred-indonesia-to-drop-russia-china-arms-deals.html https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/03/13/trump-threat-...

by truth_ 5y ago

alkonaut 5y ago

It's a complex issue. It's not just money involved, buying a long term "system" means you are reliant on relations for spares and support. This puts into question the willingness of (e.g.) Turkey as a NATO country to upset Russia. NATO is a defense pact, which in reality means a military industrial pact too. There is no way to entirely separate the manufacturing and acquisition of military gear, from the treaty where it's supposed to be used.

KMag 5y ago
Wasn't there also at one point a proposal for a F-35 maintenance facility in Turkey? Having that kind of access to F-35 information and being potentially beholden to a manufacturer of the main threat to the F-35 sounds like a huge intelligence leak just waiting to happen.
buran77 5y ago
The US does its best to prevent allies from having any kind of military technology outside of US control, particularly if it's effective. Allegiances aren't set in stone and the US won't take the chance to see that tech used against them. [0] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-system-to-include-jamming-capability https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-sys... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internationaleducationnews https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internation...

adriancr 5y ago

I don't see how it's a good idea to buy air defense from a potential enemy you have... the country NATO was created to defend against... It will surely protect you against them and not be used to sabotage/spy on you.

truth_ 5y ago
India is not a part of NATO. India was one of the leaders of the Non-Alignment Movement, but did certainly bend a little towards the USSR. USSR and post-USSR Russia has solidly backed India in many issues. When the US imposed bans on export of vaccine raw materials even after a month of assurances of special waivers for India, Russia agreed to supply and produce Sputnik V in a heartbeat. Historically, here's one example- when US Ally Pakistan was committing a genocide and ethnic cleansing on its own people [0] (now the country of Bangladesh), and India was funding and training the rebels, the US sent Task Force 74 to deter India. And Russia sent cruisers, destroyer, and a nuclear armed submarine to balance the situation. India won the war of 1971. And the independent country of Bangladesh was born. See- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_74 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_74 [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  We also openly supported white colonisers in India like the Portuguese in Goa and the French in Pondicherry (just like Vietnam etc). We even voted against Indians at the UN in favor of white colonial rule of Goa (and even forced client states through coups/arms twisting to vote along). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Goa#UN_attempts_at_ceasefire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Goa#UN_attempts_...
- adriancr 5y ago
  India is not part of NATO... I only meant the comment for NATO countries. For India it does makes a lot of sense.
hutzlibu 5y ago
The nato was created against the sowjetunion. There is no more sowjetunion. And it is a bit frustrating, that we are in a new cold war right now, because people were too lazy(on both sides) to adjust after the wall came down. So yes, russia is an enemy again, hurey and sure it makes not much sense letting them gather direct data to boosten their air defence missiles. But this works in both ways, no? If you have the S400 - you can study extensivly its weaknessess. Apart from that, china seems a bigger threat.

1cvmask 5y ago

Having an AAAD (A2/AD) defense system poses a threat to bombing planes, missiles etc.. Defensive systems raise the cost of an invasion or bombing runs. You can threaten countries easily or in an easier manner when we deny them systems like the S400. Would we have bombed Vietnam, Laos and everywhere else so indiscriminately if the had proper defensive systems in place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon

_tik_ 5y ago

US bullied Indonesia to buy US weapons too. And Indonesia is not a NATO member. Most of those weapons from US is overpriced and overkill for Indonesia need. https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/03/13/trump-threat-spurred-indonesia-to-drop-russia-china-arms-deals.html https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/03/13/trump-threat-...