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There are about three great powers / political cliques with aspirations that interact through geopolitics. One is US led with roots in western roman church, th

by fsloth 5y ago

There are about three great powers / political cliques with aspirations that interact through geopolitics. One is US led with roots in western roman church, the other Chinese, the third a culturally rich agglomeration of various authoritarian regimes that mostly are united by their desire for local power, disdain of democracy and both overt US and China influence. You cannot live connected to the net without presumption that the security body of one or more of these has access to your data, and will trawl through this data with impunity. The only thing you can do is to hedge your bets on which political entity has the most unencumbered access. So either US, China or the local neighborhood friendly authoritarian state security service. I would imagine everybody of importance in the west presumes NSA listens to them, politely ignore this and just turn off their phones when they don't want to be eavesdropped. It sucks that either I have to go full edward-snowden-harden-my-kit way, or then just not care about my privacy. I'm a bit lazy and not that idealistic and hence choose the latter.

socialdemocrat 5y ago
That is cynical nonsense. Europe could have taken care of its own security. Exit NATO and build a European defense alliance not made into a tool for American aspirations for world domination. Europe has IMO much cleaner goals. European nations don’t keep 800 military bases around the world and massive spying operations.
- fsloth 5y ago
  I’m presuming we are using EU and ”Europe” to mean roughly the same thing in this discussion (France, Germany, and bunch of smaller states nobody remembers the full list of). Tongue in cheek. It’s not nonsense, it’s the current situation. I am not saying Europe would not have the capability to do the things you said theoretically. Pragmatically there is no such capability at the moment. EU is a trade and subsidies -body at the moment. Security is handled by individual member states and by Nato. The problem is there is no geopolitcal credible entity called ”Europe” - just a bunch of member states. To gauge EU:s capability level in security at the moment - take the latest Belorussian stunt. Imagine what the US response would have been if KGB had hijacked a plane flying from Miami to New York.
  - mekkkkkk 5y ago
    That's an interesting thought experiment. To make it a bit more analogous, posit that Cuba forced a US Puerto Rico-bound aircraft to land in Havana in order to arrest a Cuban journalist. What do you think the US response would have been?
    - fsloth 5y ago
      Puerto Rico is an interesting choice given many US citizen apparently don't consider it part of US proper (given apparently puerto ricoans are weirdly considered 'immigrants'). I chose mainland cities to evoke the "proper" expected outrage level given both Athens and Vilnius are (supposedly) major european cities. Your example, of course, is much closer to the percieved outrage level. I have no idea how US would specifically react, but the response likely would have been chosen to a) discourage future actions of the sort and b) to appease angry voters. Also, Cuba is already quite cordoned off, while Belarus has been part of the international community (they got to co-host Hockey wordl championships 2021). The EU response felt like "as a geopolitical entity, what is the bare minimum effort to save our diplomatic face". The lack of voter interest in EU is most critical, I think. I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter. Which means, for all purposes, it's obvious the voting public has no "global eu consciousness" and hence EU is after this again geopolitically that much less credible IMHO.
      - SSLy 5y ago
        >I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter Could it be because majority of citizens don't use English as their native language / the one used to talk politics?
        fsloth 5y ago
        Let me rephrase that a bit - I am a citizen of an EU member state (Finland) - and there was very little discussion of any sort except theoretical pondering on what this means from political theory point of view. Very little worry or outrage. Kidnapping citizens of EU fellow member states is obviously not considered very important.
- dijit 5y ago
  The political appetite among EU citizens for an EU army (at least from my understanding) is not there. One of the leading brexiteer cries was: "The EU wants to make an Army", so that should tell you that the concept is greatly disliked since it's a core argument _against the EU itself_. I live in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here. How do you explain to someone who doesn't like NATO and the concept of the EU that they should join an EU army?
  - kreeben 5y ago
    "in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here" That does not ring true to me. Care to back up that claim with a source?
    - dijit 5y ago
      I could cite the rise of Sverigedemokraterna which has an anti-eu slant. https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results-migration-far-right-neurotica/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results... But I live in Malmo and see stickers popping up against the EU, I hear from the Swedish workers who have replaced the electrics and plastered the walls in my apartment about how bad the EU is and that Britain did the right thing (I'm british, which is why they came out with it). I mean, "SWEXIT" is definitely something on the rise. https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bilda-ny-frihandelsunion/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bi... But maybe this is not in Stockholm or the other major cities, I would even say Malmo itself does not have an appetite for breaking up with the EU, but the surrounding Skane region definitely has a stronger anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment. But that was true for Brexit too, London was quite opposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Greater_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kin...
      - kreeben 5y ago
        The rise of Sverigedemokraterna is not proof of your initial claim that anti-EU sentiment is on the rise. "SWEXIT" This is the first time I've heard this term. Is it on the rise? I see no proof of it. Your link to Expressen news outlet is an opinion piece and does not prove your original claim.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  No it's almost impossible within the current political framework. Controlling European countries through espionage and other dark means was initiated from the late 40s (Operation Gladio) and there is none, I mean literally none who could get away from it. Of course, unless you choose to revolutionize and destroy the old political framework.
aritmo 5y ago
>One is US led with roots in western roman church I stopped reading there.
- fsloth 5y ago
  I'm sorry, could you specify what is offensive about this? No offence or insult was intended - I will not use this turn of phrase in the future if it's off-putting. But I would like to understand why? I did not imply this in the "clash of civilizations" sense of inevitable conflict, but just to higlight the cultural alignment within the said block. I meant "roughly the polities that signed the treaty of Westphalia and their later date offspring plus the five-eyed anglosphere". This is what we consider the modern "west", isn't it?

by fsloth 5y ago

socialdemocrat 5y ago

That is cynical nonsense. Europe could have taken care of its own security. Exit NATO and build a European defense alliance not made into a tool for American aspirations for world domination. Europe has IMO much cleaner goals. European nations don’t keep 800 military bases around the world and massive spying operations.

fsloth 5y ago
I’m presuming we are using EU and ”Europe” to mean roughly the same thing in this discussion (France, Germany, and bunch of smaller states nobody remembers the full list of). Tongue in cheek. It’s not nonsense, it’s the current situation. I am not saying Europe would not have the capability to do the things you said theoretically. Pragmatically there is no such capability at the moment. EU is a trade and subsidies -body at the moment. Security is handled by individual member states and by Nato. The problem is there is no geopolitcal credible entity called ”Europe” - just a bunch of member states. To gauge EU:s capability level in security at the moment - take the latest Belorussian stunt. Imagine what the US response would have been if KGB had hijacked a plane flying from Miami to New York.
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  That's an interesting thought experiment. To make it a bit more analogous, posit that Cuba forced a US Puerto Rico-bound aircraft to land in Havana in order to arrest a Cuban journalist. What do you think the US response would have been?
  - fsloth 5y ago
    Puerto Rico is an interesting choice given many US citizen apparently don't consider it part of US proper (given apparently puerto ricoans are weirdly considered 'immigrants'). I chose mainland cities to evoke the "proper" expected outrage level given both Athens and Vilnius are (supposedly) major european cities. Your example, of course, is much closer to the percieved outrage level. I have no idea how US would specifically react, but the response likely would have been chosen to a) discourage future actions of the sort and b) to appease angry voters. Also, Cuba is already quite cordoned off, while Belarus has been part of the international community (they got to co-host Hockey wordl championships 2021). The EU response felt like "as a geopolitical entity, what is the bare minimum effort to save our diplomatic face". The lack of voter interest in EU is most critical, I think. I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter. Which means, for all purposes, it's obvious the voting public has no "global eu consciousness" and hence EU is after this again geopolitically that much less credible IMHO.
    - SSLy 5y ago
      >I can't find any popular EU citizen sentiment of outrage over the matter Could it be because majority of citizens don't use English as their native language / the one used to talk politics?
      - fsloth 5y ago
        Let me rephrase that a bit - I am a citizen of an EU member state (Finland) - and there was very little discussion of any sort except theoretical pondering on what this means from political theory point of view. Very little worry or outrage. Kidnapping citizens of EU fellow member states is obviously not considered very important.
dijit 5y ago
The political appetite among EU citizens for an EU army (at least from my understanding) is not there. One of the leading brexiteer cries was: "The EU wants to make an Army", so that should tell you that the concept is greatly disliked since it's a core argument _against the EU itself_. I live in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here. How do you explain to someone who doesn't like NATO and the concept of the EU that they should join an EU army?
- kreeben 5y ago
  "in Sweden now and there is a growing anti-EU sentiment here" That does not ring true to me. Care to back up that claim with a source?
  - dijit 5y ago
    I could cite the rise of Sverigedemokraterna which has an anti-eu slant. https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://sd.se/our-politics/eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results-migration-far-right-neurotica/ https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-election-2018-results... But I live in Malmo and see stickers popping up against the EU, I hear from the Swedish workers who have replaced the electrics and plastered the walls in my apartment about how bad the EU is and that Britain did the right thing (I'm british, which is why they came out with it). I mean, "SWEXIT" is definitely something on the rise. https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bilda-ny-frihandelsunion/ https://www.expressen.se/debatt/kasta-in-eu-handduken-och-bi... But maybe this is not in Stockholm or the other major cities, I would even say Malmo itself does not have an appetite for breaking up with the EU, but the surrounding Skane region definitely has a stronger anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment. But that was true for Brexit too, London was quite opposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Greater_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kin...
    - kreeben 5y ago
      The rise of Sverigedemokraterna is not proof of your initial claim that anti-EU sentiment is on the rise. "SWEXIT" This is the first time I've heard this term. Is it on the rise? I see no proof of it. Your link to Expressen news outlet is an opinion piece and does not prove your original claim.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
markus_zhang 5y ago
No it's almost impossible within the current political framework. Controlling European countries through espionage and other dark means was initiated from the late 40s (Operation Gladio) and there is none, I mean literally none who could get away from it. Of course, unless you choose to revolutionize and destroy the old political framework.

aritmo 5y ago

>One is US led with roots in western roman church I stopped reading there.

fsloth 5y ago
I'm sorry, could you specify what is offensive about this? No offence or insult was intended - I will not use this turn of phrase in the future if it's off-putting. But I would like to understand why? I did not imply this in the "clash of civilizations" sense of inevitable conflict, but just to higlight the cultural alignment within the said block. I meant "roughly the polities that signed the treaty of Westphalia and their later date offspring plus the five-eyed anglosphere". This is what we consider the modern "west", isn't it?