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This reminds me how I used to smooth out people's extreme views of areas and regimes: One day your child will be going on a senior trip to Disneyland Iraq and

This reminds me how I used to smooth out people's extreme views of areas and regimes: One day your child will be going on a senior trip to Disneyland Iraq and your protest against it will simply make you look like the old prejudiced bigot. Nobody will care that you were fed propaganda and also reality for 20 years straight. No different than our parents, grandparents or refugees having haunting views of other countries that are major allies now.

calvinmorrison 5y ago
Reminds me of the Mad Men scene where the old guy is in a conference with a Japanese firm and freaks out, still mentally fighting the war, while everyone else stares at him like he's crazy
sebmellen 5y ago
Though I understand your point, “Disneyland Iraq” still sounds like an extremely remote possibility.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I'm sure Tokyo Disneyland sounded extremely unlikely forty years before it opened.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Might be Netflixland by then.
bloaf 5y ago
While possible, it is equally possible that the Iraq of 30 years from now is just as unsafe for LGBTQ people as it is today.
- ixacto 5y ago
  Yes but we don’t know. Saudi Arabia could be a secular dictatorship/kingdom similar to Turkey or Syria by then. Iraq might be much more inclusive by then. Then again Turkey could go full Islamist crazy and be more Saudi Arabia and Erdoğan could declare himself president for life. But I think globalization will somewhat liberalize all of the above in the coming years, and the desire to fit in and do business globally will push for liberalization.
  - belatw 5y ago
    > Then again Turkey could go full Islamist crazy and be more Saudi Arabia and Erdoğan could declare himself president for life. It would never happen. Turks are Turks first and Muslim second. Erdogan is a neo-ottomanist, not a salafist. He’s as much of a Muslim as Trump is a Christian. Now I do see him trying to sell more of the nation to Saudis and Emirates while also forcing enough pro-sunni legislation down our throats to keep the Conservative / Nationalists happy and ensure that Saudi / Qatari investment coming and to ensure he can profit like a bandit off of his pre-doomed “Islamic Finance” initiatives. However, Turks are fairly centrist by American standards. They drink, a lot (alcohol tax revenue is crucial to the government, as well as direct sales as the government still owns some of the Raki and Beer production), smoke weed, party, are getting married and having children later in life, and fewer. I watched the sweaty shirtless guys beating mislead soldiers to death during the failed coup a few years ago. They weren’t shouting allahu akbar while they did it. They waved Ataturk flags and sang the Izmir march.
  - bloaf 5y ago
    Climate change is real, and oil is in decline. These countries will only become harder to live in, and their incomes will only decline. That these countries will modernize and liberalize in the face of these challenges is not at all a foregone conclusion.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Is the implication that Islamic terrorist groups operating in Iraq were propagandist fiction? That the real reason westerners fear Iraq is bigotry? I’m specifically unfamiliar with “grandparents and refugees having haunting views of other countries”. I have grandfathers who served in WWII and Korea and they don’t have any particular antipathy for Germans or Koreans. I’m not really familiar with that meme.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  If Islamic terrorist groups were a major factor in destroying and destabilizing a country it’s a wonder Saudi Arabia is still standing.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    What does “destroying and destabilizing a country” have to do with the premise (fear of traveling to Iraq)? Genuine question.
    - the_only_law 5y ago
      Apologies, missed the parent and misread the context.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    Isn’t the answer oil money? I know it’s been said a lot that the KSA has a serious fundamentalist problem but they are able to basically bribe the large parts of their populace that would otherwise turn the country upside down.
- vmception 5y ago
  The answer to your first question is no. It's still up to you to figure out which parts were propaganda and which parts were reality. The only distinction between a terrorist group or otherwise is sovereign immunity, if you succeed in getting a state then you aren't a terrorist anymore by definition of having political goals met. And the answer to everything else is now you are familiar with the meme. Enjoy the new valid experience you went your whole life unaware of.
exo-pla-net 5y ago
It's almost like countries comprise human beings with varying attitudes, and the fanatics don't speak for everybody, much less the kids currently being born.
- jgilias 5y ago
  There are only a few dozen countries that allow people to express those attitudes, or even recognize the right of people to harbor varying attitudes in the first place. No matter how much you might not believe in God, there are plenty of places where your life will be in danger for expressing that attitude, so you don't.
jacobwilliamroy 5y ago
I regularly play Arab pop music at parties: Nancy Ajram, Amr Diab, Mohammed Assaf.
pjc50 5y ago
I think you're being a bit obtuse about a perfectly reasonable point that yes, someday the war is over and the other side becomes entirely normal. It happened relatively quickly with Germany, in fact maybe quicker than the rehabilitation of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_city (well, West Germany anyway!) On the other hand, the war has to end first. Some simply haven't. Europe's oldest frozen warzone is still there, the Green Line across Cyprus. The tourist resort of Nicosia is still a no man's land. https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-green-line-nicosia-s-urban-no-man-s-land/ https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-green-line-nicos...

calvinmorrison 5y ago

Reminds me of the Mad Men scene where the old guy is in a conference with a Japanese firm and freaks out, still mentally fighting the war, while everyone else stares at him like he's crazy

sebmellen 5y ago

Though I understand your point, “Disneyland Iraq” still sounds like an extremely remote possibility.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
I'm sure Tokyo Disneyland sounded extremely unlikely forty years before it opened.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Might be Netflixland by then.

bloaf 5y ago

While possible, it is equally possible that the Iraq of 30 years from now is just as unsafe for LGBTQ people as it is today.

ixacto 5y ago
Yes but we don’t know. Saudi Arabia could be a secular dictatorship/kingdom similar to Turkey or Syria by then. Iraq might be much more inclusive by then. Then again Turkey could go full Islamist crazy and be more Saudi Arabia and Erdoğan could declare himself president for life. But I think globalization will somewhat liberalize all of the above in the coming years, and the desire to fit in and do business globally will push for liberalization.
- belatw 5y ago
  > Then again Turkey could go full Islamist crazy and be more Saudi Arabia and Erdoğan could declare himself president for life. It would never happen. Turks are Turks first and Muslim second. Erdogan is a neo-ottomanist, not a salafist. He’s as much of a Muslim as Trump is a Christian. Now I do see him trying to sell more of the nation to Saudis and Emirates while also forcing enough pro-sunni legislation down our throats to keep the Conservative / Nationalists happy and ensure that Saudi / Qatari investment coming and to ensure he can profit like a bandit off of his pre-doomed “Islamic Finance” initiatives. However, Turks are fairly centrist by American standards. They drink, a lot (alcohol tax revenue is crucial to the government, as well as direct sales as the government still owns some of the Raki and Beer production), smoke weed, party, are getting married and having children later in life, and fewer. I watched the sweaty shirtless guys beating mislead soldiers to death during the failed coup a few years ago. They weren’t shouting allahu akbar while they did it. They waved Ataturk flags and sang the Izmir march.
- bloaf 5y ago
  Climate change is real, and oil is in decline. These countries will only become harder to live in, and their incomes will only decline. That these countries will modernize and liberalize in the face of these challenges is not at all a foregone conclusion.

throwaway894345 5y ago

Is the implication that Islamic terrorist groups operating in Iraq were propagandist fiction? That the real reason westerners fear Iraq is bigotry? I’m specifically unfamiliar with “grandparents and refugees having haunting views of other countries”. I have grandfathers who served in WWII and Korea and they don’t have any particular antipathy for Germans or Koreans. I’m not really familiar with that meme.

the_only_law 5y ago
If Islamic terrorist groups were a major factor in destroying and destabilizing a country it’s a wonder Saudi Arabia is still standing.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  What does “destroying and destabilizing a country” have to do with the premise (fear of traveling to Iraq)? Genuine question.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    Apologies, missed the parent and misread the context.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Isn’t the answer oil money? I know it’s been said a lot that the KSA has a serious fundamentalist problem but they are able to basically bribe the large parts of their populace that would otherwise turn the country upside down.
vmception 5y ago
The answer to your first question is no. It's still up to you to figure out which parts were propaganda and which parts were reality. The only distinction between a terrorist group or otherwise is sovereign immunity, if you succeed in getting a state then you aren't a terrorist anymore by definition of having political goals met. And the answer to everything else is now you are familiar with the meme. Enjoy the new valid experience you went your whole life unaware of.

exo-pla-net 5y ago

It's almost like countries comprise human beings with varying attitudes, and the fanatics don't speak for everybody, much less the kids currently being born.

jgilias 5y ago
There are only a few dozen countries that allow people to express those attitudes, or even recognize the right of people to harbor varying attitudes in the first place. No matter how much you might not believe in God, there are plenty of places where your life will be in danger for expressing that attitude, so you don't.

jacobwilliamroy 5y ago

I regularly play Arab pop music at parties: Nancy Ajram, Amr Diab, Mohammed Assaf.

pjc50 5y ago

I think you're being a bit obtuse about a perfectly reasonable point that yes, someday the war is over and the other side becomes entirely normal. It happened relatively quickly with Germany, in fact maybe quicker than the rehabilitation of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_city (well, West Germany anyway!) On the other hand, the war has to end first. Some simply haven't. Europe's oldest frozen warzone is still there, the Green Line across Cyprus. The tourist resort of Nicosia is still a no man's land. https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-green-line-nicosia-s-urban-no-man-s-land/ https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-green-line-nicos...