4 ms·

I still wonder, what happens if other countries like China, Russia spy on other governments and are disclosed? They will be embargoed by US. But why there is no

I still wonder, what happens if other countries like China, Russia spy on other governments and are disclosed? They will be embargoed by US. But why there is nothing happens when US spying other countries? Because US does it with good manner and good intention?

Permit 5y ago
> I still wonder, what happens if other countries like China, Russia spy on other governments and are disclosed? They will be embargoed by US. Does this happen? Has China faced sanctions after spying on US citizens or stealing trade secrets? Has Russia?
- f38zf5vdt 5y ago
  Yeah. For a while now. [1][2] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/administration-developing-sanctions-against-china-over-cyberespionage/2015/08/30/9b2910aa-480b-11e5-8ab4-c73967a143d3_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/admin... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/biden-to-announce-tough-sanctions-on-russia-over-cyber-spying/2021/04/15/a4c1d260-746e-11eb-948d-19472e683521_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/biden-to-an...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Permit 5y ago
    The China sanctions do not appear to have been enacted, but the Russian ones in response to the attack on SolarWinds do. Thanks for the links!
- quyleanh 5y ago
  > Does this happen? Has China faced sanctions after spying on US citizens or stealing trade secrets? Has Russia? Yes, it does happen. I've read many news about US claims that Chinese government-backed hacker groups or corporations spying and stealing. And they are embargoed. You can refer to Huawei case.
  - Permit 5y ago
    > You can refer to Huawei case. I have only surface-level knowledge, but wasn't this case because Huawei was selling components to Iran? Or was it related to spying?
    - eloff 5y ago
      It was selling components to Iran.
    - quyleanh 5y ago
      You can refer to this article. US claims Huawei 5G devices can track and spy US and Europe citizens. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-huawei-the-5g-play-is-in-europe--and-the-us-is-pushing-hard-for-a-ban-there/2019/05/28/582a8ff6-78d4-11e9-b7ae-390de4259661_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-h...
    - justicezyx 5y ago
      Selling to Iran as the motivation of sanctioning Huawei? How poorly you are informed about international politics? If selling to Iran was a problem, then you can just do whatever you want in the legal process to fix the issue. Force companies to not work with huawei, even against those companies' own interests. And detaining the Huwei founder's daughter and internationally to drag her into a legal marathon that has no end in sight, virtually sentence her to life time home arrest. How naïve you are! Or should I say how consistently you are sugarcoating the bullshit, bravo!
      - Permit 5y ago
        > How poorly you are informed about international politics? > How naïve you are! Why the hostility? I've asked a handful of questions in good faith and another commenter politely corrected me on a few issues I was not aware of. It sounds like you have a better understanding of the issues at hand so I'd invite you to correct me rather than insult me.
        5y ago
- unishark 5y ago
  I'm not clear what is illegal and where is the jurisdiction in this case. Apparently it is about Danish Intelligence allowing the tapping of Danish internet lines in Denmark. Is that a crime? Is it even something China would deny doing within their own country? I thought the US govt would just refused to allow services or something be sold to the US from China if they knew it went on. Or you know, try to, before the outrage and legal process overturned the ban.
  - fogihujy 5y ago
    Illegal? Possibly. It's being debated according to Danish news. Controversial? Yes, to the extent that Denmark managed to piss off every single neighboring country. Also, Denmark is actively trying to avoid shutting down some illegal monitoring of its' own citizens, and this is pouring more fuel on that fire. Spying on Germany caused a political shitstorm the last time it was im the Danish news and now it has been revealed Denmark spied on others too, I suspect that circus will be repeated.
woofcat 5y ago
Spying happens all the time without embargo's happening.
rsj_hn 5y ago
Wait, we have an embargo against China?
- quyleanh 5y ago
  You really don't know?
- nosianu 5y ago
  Quite timely that we have a Wikipedia article on the HN homepage right now. Because I find that that site often helps with such questions, so I find them quite a valuable resource. They have a list for just this question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...
f38zf5vdt 5y ago
Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- paganel 5y ago
  Or the nuclear arsenal which sits on your side. Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans with some plain, visible costs (the at least 2% of GDP in military expenditure the previous US president was so keen about) and, more importantly, there are also some other, hidden costs, like the Assange scandal and stuff like this Danish - NSA cooperation.
  - Daho0n 5y ago
    >Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans That is a very American point of view. Many Europeans see it more as "The US pay a bigger part than we do in bolstering American control of the western world", which is exactly as it should be. IMO the US should pay exactly 100% of the bill for its own defense and enforcement of its power projection. The US does this to protect the US, not Europe. Europe is only interesting if it is pro-US and as a buffer and economic zone. Old Cold war plans even had plans to nuke Europe to show the USSR that the US meant business in the event of a USSR invasion.. What we see here is a perfect example why I (as a Danish citizen) have heard Denmark called Little America and Scandinavia's answer to the USA by both Swedes and Norwegians. Often living here feels more like living in a satellite or puppet state than a free country: Do F-35s match our need? No not at all but we better break our own laws to make a contract that only the US can win. Do citizens want a US base the Danish military isn't allowed to monitor for nuclear weapons? No but we still got one (and even though not allowed it still had nukes). Do the people want a NSA like intelligence system? No but even the average elected politicians can't get access to any information about FE and what they do (only leaks like this tell them what is going on). And so on and so forth. The latest Democratic Perception Index (chaired by the Danish former NATO general secretary Anders Fogh) found when asking people "Who is the biggest threat to democracy in the world?" most rated the US as the biggest threat (if I remember correctly, northern Europeans especially had this viewpoint). This is just a situation of the puppet doing as it was taught.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
> But why there is nothing happens when US spying other countries? Because US does it with good manner and good intention? The best way to understand the relationship between the US and Europe is that it is an American Empire in all but name. The provinces of the Empire have a lot of autonomy, but in matters of defense and security they are tied to the Empire. If you realize that, a lot of things make sense.
kalleboo 5y ago
Because ostensibly the US is an ally. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7jdz-fXwAI8w-U?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7jdz-fXwAI8w-U?format=jpg&name=...
severino 5y ago
Because nothing happens when you spy on your satellite states. 40 years ago people said it was wrong to have Soviet satellite states in Europe, and they seemed right. Only that they just meant the "Soviet" part of the sentence.
planck01 5y ago
Spying among allies has more impact than you think. There are similar levels of public outrage, but obviously you can't boycot allies without damaging relations more. So measures won't be pubically visual. But it will lead to a degraded confidence and all kinds of cooperation will be reduced and cold shouldering will happen. However subtle and only when a countries own interest is not hurt too much.

Permit 5y ago

> I still wonder, what happens if other countries like China, Russia spy on other governments and are disclosed? They will be embargoed by US. Does this happen? Has China faced sanctions after spying on US citizens or stealing trade secrets? Has Russia?

f38zf5vdt 5y ago
Yeah. For a while now. [1][2] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/administration-developing-sanctions-against-china-over-cyberespionage/2015/08/30/9b2910aa-480b-11e5-8ab4-c73967a143d3_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/admin... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/biden-to-announce-tough-sanctions-on-russia-over-cyber-spying/2021/04/15/a4c1d260-746e-11eb-948d-19472e683521_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/biden-to-an...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Permit 5y ago
  The China sanctions do not appear to have been enacted, but the Russian ones in response to the attack on SolarWinds do. Thanks for the links!
quyleanh 5y ago
> Does this happen? Has China faced sanctions after spying on US citizens or stealing trade secrets? Has Russia? Yes, it does happen. I've read many news about US claims that Chinese government-backed hacker groups or corporations spying and stealing. And they are embargoed. You can refer to Huawei case.
- Permit 5y ago
  > You can refer to Huawei case. I have only surface-level knowledge, but wasn't this case because Huawei was selling components to Iran? Or was it related to spying?
  - eloff 5y ago
    It was selling components to Iran.
  - quyleanh 5y ago
    You can refer to this article. US claims Huawei 5G devices can track and spy US and Europe citizens. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-huawei-the-5g-play-is-in-europe--and-the-us-is-pushing-hard-for-a-ban-there/2019/05/28/582a8ff6-78d4-11e9-b7ae-390de4259661_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-h...
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    Selling to Iran as the motivation of sanctioning Huawei? How poorly you are informed about international politics? If selling to Iran was a problem, then you can just do whatever you want in the legal process to fix the issue. Force companies to not work with huawei, even against those companies' own interests. And detaining the Huwei founder's daughter and internationally to drag her into a legal marathon that has no end in sight, virtually sentence her to life time home arrest. How naïve you are! Or should I say how consistently you are sugarcoating the bullshit, bravo!
    - Permit 5y ago
      > How poorly you are informed about international politics? > How naïve you are! Why the hostility? I've asked a handful of questions in good faith and another commenter politely corrected me on a few issues I was not aware of. It sounds like you have a better understanding of the issues at hand so I'd invite you to correct me rather than insult me.
      - 5y ago
unishark 5y ago
I'm not clear what is illegal and where is the jurisdiction in this case. Apparently it is about Danish Intelligence allowing the tapping of Danish internet lines in Denmark. Is that a crime? Is it even something China would deny doing within their own country? I thought the US govt would just refused to allow services or something be sold to the US from China if they knew it went on. Or you know, try to, before the outrage and legal process overturned the ban.
- fogihujy 5y ago
  Illegal? Possibly. It's being debated according to Danish news. Controversial? Yes, to the extent that Denmark managed to piss off every single neighboring country. Also, Denmark is actively trying to avoid shutting down some illegal monitoring of its' own citizens, and this is pouring more fuel on that fire. Spying on Germany caused a political shitstorm the last time it was im the Danish news and now it has been revealed Denmark spied on others too, I suspect that circus will be repeated.

woofcat 5y ago

Spying happens all the time without embargo's happening.

rsj_hn 5y ago

Wait, we have an embargo against China?

quyleanh 5y ago
You really don't know?
nosianu 5y ago
Quite timely that we have a Wikipedia article on the HN homepage right now. Because I find that that site often helps with such questions, so I find them quite a valuable resource. They have a list for just this question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...

f38zf5vdt 5y ago

Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
paganel 5y ago
Or the nuclear arsenal which sits on your side. Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans with some plain, visible costs (the at least 2% of GDP in military expenditure the previous US president was so keen about) and, more importantly, there are also some other, hidden costs, like the Assange scandal and stuff like this Danish - NSA cooperation.
- Daho0n 5y ago
  >Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans That is a very American point of view. Many Europeans see it more as "The US pay a bigger part than we do in bolstering American control of the western world", which is exactly as it should be. IMO the US should pay exactly 100% of the bill for its own defense and enforcement of its power projection. The US does this to protect the US, not Europe. Europe is only interesting if it is pro-US and as a buffer and economic zone. Old Cold war plans even had plans to nuke Europe to show the USSR that the US meant business in the event of a USSR invasion.. What we see here is a perfect example why I (as a Danish citizen) have heard Denmark called Little America and Scandinavia's answer to the USA by both Swedes and Norwegians. Often living here feels more like living in a satellite or puppet state than a free country: Do F-35s match our need? No not at all but we better break our own laws to make a contract that only the US can win. Do citizens want a US base the Danish military isn't allowed to monitor for nuclear weapons? No but we still got one (and even though not allowed it still had nukes). Do the people want a NSA like intelligence system? No but even the average elected politicians can't get access to any information about FE and what they do (only leaks like this tell them what is going on). And so on and so forth. The latest Democratic Perception Index (chaired by the Danish former NATO general secretary Anders Fogh) found when asking people "Who is the biggest threat to democracy in the world?" most rated the US as the biggest threat (if I remember correctly, northern Europeans especially had this viewpoint). This is just a situation of the puppet doing as it was taught.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

> But why there is nothing happens when US spying other countries? Because US does it with good manner and good intention? The best way to understand the relationship between the US and Europe is that it is an American Empire in all but name. The provinces of the Empire have a lot of autonomy, but in matters of defense and security they are tied to the Empire. If you realize that, a lot of things make sense.

kalleboo 5y ago

Because ostensibly the US is an ally. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7jdz-fXwAI8w-U?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7jdz-fXwAI8w-U?format=jpg&name=...

severino 5y ago

Because nothing happens when you spy on your satellite states. 40 years ago people said it was wrong to have Soviet satellite states in Europe, and they seemed right. Only that they just meant the "Soviet" part of the sentence.

planck01 5y ago

Spying among allies has more impact than you think. There are similar levels of public outrage, but obviously you can't boycot allies without damaging relations more. So measures won't be pubically visual. But it will lead to a degraded confidence and all kinds of cooperation will be reduced and cold shouldering will happen. However subtle and only when a countries own interest is not hurt too much.