7 ms·

The New York Times uses the dark patterns it derides

200 points by nireyal 5y ago

WalterBright 5y ago
> I was surprised, however, to find the New York Times uses the very same dark pattern it derides to prevent its own subscribers from canceling. It was very simple for me to cancel my NYT subscription. I got a new credit card because the old one was getting mysterious charges on it. I forgot that NYT had that card on my subscription. I soon started getting dunning notices on it, and logged in to change the card number. The NYT kept rejecting the new card, and I gave up. No more NYT for me!
WalterBright 5y ago
> I told the representative I wanted to cancel. Then I was offered reasons not to. I responded with “no thanks” each time. Then, I waited for the representative to reply and come back with several rounds of offers to get me not to cancel. On and on, the process went until I was finally allowed to leave. That's fairly easy to deal with. Answer every question, argument, and pitch from the representative with "please cancel my subscription".
- bozzcl 5y ago
  True, but it’s still crappy of them to waste people’s time.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Sure, but you can waste less time by going as far as interrupting their questions, arguments and pitches with a firm "please cancel my subscription." That gets 'em through their script faster.
- contriban 5y ago
  Indeed, I was planning to find a California VPN to avoid the chat/call, but really it took maybe 2 minutes of idle chat to deal with it. Even my low bar for BS wasn’t that triggered. honestly I was more hopefully that they’d renew the $1/month offer instead, but nothing.
- kilburn 5y ago
  Right after the first question, someone should try replying in the lines of: I have expressed in no unclear terms that I want to cancel my subscription and I don't want to answer any further non-essential questions about it. Any further questions that are not legally necessary to terminate our relationship will be considered usage of my professional consulting services at the rate of 10$/minute for which I will send you a bill after the call finishes. How may we proceed? I'd love to know what would happen next.
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    It's a nice thought, but nothing would happen. They might even just cancel the chat to annoy you. Or they might continue asking you questions. In either case they wouldn't owe you money for it. They didn't engage into a contract with you just because you sent them that message. That said you might have certain consumer protections you're not aware of. I had cell phone plan with Comviq here in Sweden that I wanted to cancel and they said on their website that I needed to call. Swedish law requires my being able to cancel in various ways (e.g. sending a letter, or sending an email, etc.) regardless of what they said in their initial contract. So I found an address and just sent them an email stating I wanted to cancel. In a day or two it was done. I presume they know they are legally required to do so and so they did what I said, but I'm also sure they happy to provide conflicting information making consumers unaware of their rights. I reported their website to our consumer protection authorities, but I never heard back.
6f8986c3 5y ago
What else would you expect from the NYT? What used to be the "paper of record" has been a garbage tabloid for at least five years, maybe more.
sedatk 5y ago
That's happened to me too, and every time I consider re-subscribing, I remember my terrible experience canceling my subscription so I decide not to. Summary of my experience: https://twitter.com/esesci/status/1357280929316622336 https://twitter.com/esesci/status/1357280929316622336
flowerlad 5y ago
I called to cancel. I was offered $14/month promotion, and then after I agreed to the deal and gave them credit card they said I will be charged $14 every 4 weeks. I said agreed to $14/month, that's not the same as $14 every 4 weeks, because $14/month is $168 per year, but $14 every 4 weeks is $182.49 per year. They said they will charge $14 every 4 weeks, and I decided to cancel because of their scammy offer.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  For years, every AT&T and Comcast salesperson I talked with quoted me megabytes per second instead of megabits per second. They would insist that they were right if I ever asked them to clarify the units of measurement. One time the salesperson was so sure that he was right that he conferenced in a tech support person…who informed him they did not sell megabytes/second, only megabits. The salesperson was very confused. I no longer even bother asking anymore.
  - edtruji 5y ago
    My believe was that this happen as a human error, from non technical persons (not everybody is a CCNA certified or Comptia network plus). For example people will often say give me that liter of wine, when in fact the bottle it’s 750ml and not a liter per se.
    - BombNullIsland 5y ago
      "For example people will often say give me that liter of wine, when in fact the bottle it’s 750ml" No one has ever said this. Ever. In the history of ever. Wine and spirits in the US were sold as "fifths" or one fifth of a US gallon, equal to 757ml. This became a "metric fifth" or 750ml. No one is even slightly confused by this.
      - unlikelymordant 5y ago
        There are many countries where litre is the only unit of measurement, perhaps it happened in one of those?
eli 5y ago
A newspaper isn't a monolith and, by design, the members of the editorial board have very little connection to the business side of the newspaper. You're absolutely right to call out bad behavior of the subscription department, but the "liar, liar" heading is unfair.
- rock_hard 5y ago
  Looking forward to read the editorial coverage of this story
- dominotw 5y ago
  > A newspaper isn't a monolith Neither is amazon.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- elefanten 5y ago
  Given the NYT’s overall style and editorial choices these days, it’s a fair heading more broadly. Prime case in point: They have elevated opinionated moral crusading over responsible and informative reporting. If moral activism is the value the organization purports to elevate, it’s fair to call the organization dishonest when it employs transparently immoral business practices. Whether the editorial board is involved or not.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- anarazel 5y ago
ec109685 5y ago
Best way to ensure easy subscription cancelling is via an in-app purchase. Then cancelling is a few clicks without talking to anyone.
- contriban 5y ago
  Indeed but that costs more. I got 12 months at $1/month as a promotional offer. If it lets me, I might restart it (even if I don’t read much at all)
Macha 5y ago
I've considered actually subscribing to news media but the behaviour of the NYT and a few known others have left me not to trust the entire industry to behave responsibly with a subscription, so I am at least 1 anecdote of someone not subscribing because of knowledge of the cancellation process
- nireyal 5y ago
  Excellent! This is exactly what I describe in the post. This is why dark patterns are bad for the business.
- dmitrij 5y ago
  Same with me. In my case, the Economist, who does the same like the New York Times. Subscribing is a click, canceling is a call to a representative who will talk to me about how they "love to discuss a more affordable or flexible subscription option so that you can keep enjoying everything The Economist has to offer" https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-do-I-cancel-my-subscription https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-do-I-cancel-my...
  - hanklazard 5y ago
    I remember that same experience, really annoying. These days I’ve been using Privacy.com which generates a one-time use CC for anything that I want to use for the free trial period. (I am in no way affiliated with this service btw, just a happy customer).
    - nine_k 5y ago
      Many banks allow you to create a virtual CC.
  - atty 5y ago
    The economist was my first experience with this tactic, and I promised myself I’d never sign up again, no matter how good a deal they offered.
sebmellen 5y ago
For me, https://privacy.com https://privacy.com has been a lifesaver in situations like this. Can't cancel a subscription? Just cancel the card. Voilà!
- eli 5y ago
  Don’t try that with a gym membership or similar. They will come after you.
  - sebmellen 5y ago
    Yeah, definitely an important disclaimer. Generally speaking I try not to sign up for any service where the terms are deeply onerous or the industry has a bad reputation (like with gyms). For most SaaS and other online subscription models, I've found that cancelling a card is a pretty easy way to let the subscription lapse.
  - Drew_ 5y ago
    Can you elaborate on "come after you"? I would definitely use this type of option for gym subscriptions when given the chance.
    - eli 5y ago
      Send you to collections and ding your credit or perhaps even sue you.
adambard 5y ago
I had the same experience cancelling my subscription. I was able to avoid the sales pitch the author received (I guess I was a little firmer), but I doubt I'll be subscribing again after I realized there was no unsubscribe button.
mapgrep 5y ago
I have adopted a zen posture to this sort of hypocrisy which involves believing both these things: 1. It is good to call out hypocrisy like this article does where a publishing entity is engaged in behavior completely contrary to the behavior called for in their published words. 2. It is also good that the reporter’s journalism is sufficiently free (as in freedom) that they are able to write so independently of the behavior of the mother ship. Like, the world would definitely be a worse place if reporters at Bloomberg declined to do some of the excellent reporting they’ve done on tech company tax dodges just because (hypothetically) Bloomberg was a tech company that did some corporate tax dodging. It’s good that they do it. It’s also fine that people note the cognitive dissonance. It’s sort of like how I feel about Googlers protesting sexual harassment or the China search project. Personally I still think they are affiliated with a company that engages in a lot of bad practices but good on them for at least trying to change some thing however small. And at the same time I feel free to say “well ya they’re protesting this guy who was abusing his underlings but their company is abusing all of us” or whatever.
- alephnan 5y ago
  The hypocrisy in employees is when they continue to reap the financial benefits of their institutions. The cliche “you can’t expect a person to know a subject if their salary depends on not knowing it.” Ignorance is not a valid excuse when they’ve clearly indicated an outspoken awareness of the problems in the org. The excuse in this case is “instituting change from within”
- nireyal 5y ago
  I agree. But also before hitting publish they should have done a quick check of their own UX. This would have shown a good faith effort as opposed to a hypocritical take-down. It would have also illustrated a richer perspective on why these types of dark patterns get built into products in the first place, as I write in the second half of the essay.
- dialtone 5y ago
  It's really not alright to step on the pulpit to point fingers left and right when your house is also not in order, it makes it seem more like you're trying to move forward your business agenda rather than really caring about the issue.
Someone1234 5y ago
If a company does this, I am NEVER subscribing again. Whereas if a company makes cancelling/renewing super painless I'm going to come and go as a customer as it fits my needs. This results in more overall business for the company. I am literally going through this right now: A company called "Ooma" makes dongles that provide voice-over-IP for landline phones (inc. a telephone number), for $10/month with "no contract." But our use-case isn't every month, it is once every few months, and they require call-to-cancel/hassle-to-cancel, so now we're reviewing alternatives that are more legitimately flexible. They're literally going to lose my recurring business only because of this anti-consumer practice.
- nireyal 5y ago
  Yes! Good for you, bad for Ooma and other companies who use this dark pattern.
- clcaev 5y ago
  FWIW, I've been a happy voip.ms customer for a decade or so.
- mdoms 5y ago
  I subscribed to The Economist for a quarter. Loved it, read every article in every issue. I ran into some slightly difficult times so I decided to cancel, intending to pick it back up later. But their cancellation process was full of dark patterns (ultimately I had to make a phone call to an operator in Singapore) and there's simply no way in hell I'll ever come back. I cancelled my Netflix at the same time and have come and gone several times since, as they make it as easy as possible.
GhostVII 5y ago
Normally I'm not a huge fan of throwing in new laws but I do think it would be reasonable to legislate that unsubscribing from a service must be as easy as subscribing. If we are going to give companies the legal ability to auto-charge you each month, we should give people the legal ability to stop that at any time easily.
- Macha 5y ago
  California has done that, and hence NYT allows you to unsubscribe online without this hassle if it's IP geo-detection detects you're in california, which exposes this as the business/retention decision it is and not a technical limitation.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Normally I'm not a huge fan of throwing in new laws but I do think it would be reasonable to legislate that unsubscribing from a service must be as easy as subscribing But the free market will regulate itself! /s What else are laws for?
dang 5y ago
There was a thread about this recently: The New York Times criticizes dark patterns, but fails to criticize themselves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27120686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27120686 - May 2021 (31 comments)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
interpol_p 5y ago
I don't understand how dark patterns like these are ever a good long-term business strategy for a company You drain user trust for short term gain. What is the point of continuing to take someone's money if they no longer use your product? If someone doesn't want my product, I sure as hell don't want their money and would be embarrassed if they ever paid by mistake
- nireyal 5y ago
  That's exactly right! I think just as interesting is how good people make such bad decisions within a company. That's why I wrote in the article that using dark patterns is a symptom of a screwed up company culture.
nireyal 5y ago
Nir here, author of the blog post. Question - Did anyone else notice that the NYT did not accurately describe what the "roach motel" dark pattern is in their original piece? They wrote, "To prevent your information from being shared with third parties, you have to opt out after the payment screen." But that's not the roach motel, that's a default. According to DarkPatterns dot org, a roach motel is when the "...design makes it very easy for you to get into a certain situation, but then makes it hard for you to get out of it." Why did the NYT get something like this wrong?
- andrewflnr 5y ago
  Is darkpatterns.org a real authority?
  - mdoms 5y ago
    It's written by Henry Brignull who literally wrote the book on dark patterns, acts as an expert witness on dark patterns and I'm pretty sure originally coined the term "roach motel" (in this context) so.... yes?
chakalakasp 5y ago
LPT: sub things using a Privacy virtual debit card. If unsubbing is hard, email the company you want to unsubscribe and then shut the card off with a single click. They tend to unsub you quickly when you stop paying.
smbv 5y ago
This reminded me of the time where I read somewhere (I don't have the source, unfortunately) that the fastest way to cancel the NYT(?) subscription online over the chat was to say "I am going to jail."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shitRETARDSsay 5y ago
Ironically, there's no "Unsubscribe" link anywhere visible on the author's website for his newsletter. You have to wait for his weekly mail or add "unsubscribe" to the URL.
fnord77 5y ago
I think apple's in-app ads have the worst dark patterns. I tried to find a game for my elderly mom that didn't try to get you to install some other app every few minutes via a full-screen popup. No dice.
tracer4201 5y ago
The irony is NYT ran an article chastising Amazon for the very thing they also engage in. I recently had to call NYT to cancel my membership. The person on the other side ran me through a script, and each time I told them I didn’t want their counter offers. It was annoying. To be honest here, I canceled my NYT subscription because of the very subtle yet obvious propaganda laced in their articles on a recent news event. They present themselves as honest reporters, when in reality there’s language that in a subtle manner takes a clear side and provides a distorted view of a complex situation. The honest truth in my opinion is the NYT isn’t honest or more objective than other papers. Yet time and time again, their reporting is viewed as gospel.
- MangoCoffee 5y ago
  >call NYT to cancel my membership if you can sign up for the membership online. there is no reason to call anyone to cancel. Netflix is by far the best subscription service. i have sub, unsub and resub several time with just few clicks.
pabs3 5y ago
Hmm, the author's post contains lots of tracking images/scripts.
darkhorse22 5y ago
NYT's GDPR compliance UI is hilariously user-hostile. You can't even opt out. There's no chance this is accidental.
naturalauction 5y ago
Kinda related but the NYT somehow kept on charging me even after I froze and then closed a privacy.com card associated with the account (this went on for months). No idea how it happened but I eventually had to spend 30 minutes going through the maze to cancel.

200 points by nireyal 5y ago

> I was surprised, however, to find the New York Times uses the very same dark pattern it derides to prevent its own subscribers from canceling. It was very simple for me to cancel my NYT subscription. I got a new credit card because the old one was getting mysterious charges on it. I forgot that NYT had that card on my subscription. I soon started getting dunning notices on it, and logged in to change the card number. The NYT kept rejecting the new card, and I gave up. No more NYT for me!

WalterBright 5y ago

> I told the representative I wanted to cancel. Then I was offered reasons not to. I responded with “no thanks” each time. Then, I waited for the representative to reply and come back with several rounds of offers to get me not to cancel. On and on, the process went until I was finally allowed to leave. That's fairly easy to deal with. Answer every question, argument, and pitch from the representative with "please cancel my subscription".

bozzcl 5y ago
True, but it’s still crappy of them to waste people’s time.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Sure, but you can waste less time by going as far as interrupting their questions, arguments and pitches with a firm "please cancel my subscription." That gets 'em through their script faster.
contriban 5y ago
Indeed, I was planning to find a California VPN to avoid the chat/call, but really it took maybe 2 minutes of idle chat to deal with it. Even my low bar for BS wasn’t that triggered. honestly I was more hopefully that they’d renew the $1/month offer instead, but nothing.
kilburn 5y ago
Right after the first question, someone should try replying in the lines of: I have expressed in no unclear terms that I want to cancel my subscription and I don't want to answer any further non-essential questions about it. Any further questions that are not legally necessary to terminate our relationship will be considered usage of my professional consulting services at the rate of 10$/minute for which I will send you a bill after the call finishes. How may we proceed? I'd love to know what would happen next.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  It's a nice thought, but nothing would happen. They might even just cancel the chat to annoy you. Or they might continue asking you questions. In either case they wouldn't owe you money for it. They didn't engage into a contract with you just because you sent them that message. That said you might have certain consumer protections you're not aware of. I had cell phone plan with Comviq here in Sweden that I wanted to cancel and they said on their website that I needed to call. Swedish law requires my being able to cancel in various ways (e.g. sending a letter, or sending an email, etc.) regardless of what they said in their initial contract. So I found an address and just sent them an email stating I wanted to cancel. In a day or two it was done. I presume they know they are legally required to do so and so they did what I said, but I'm also sure they happy to provide conflicting information making consumers unaware of their rights. I reported their website to our consumer protection authorities, but I never heard back.

6f8986c3 5y ago

What else would you expect from the NYT? What used to be the "paper of record" has been a garbage tabloid for at least five years, maybe more.

sedatk 5y ago

That's happened to me too, and every time I consider re-subscribing, I remember my terrible experience canceling my subscription so I decide not to. Summary of my experience: https://twitter.com/esesci/status/1357280929316622336 https://twitter.com/esesci/status/1357280929316622336

flowerlad 5y ago

I called to cancel. I was offered $14/month promotion, and then after I agreed to the deal and gave them credit card they said I will be charged $14 every 4 weeks. I said agreed to $14/month, that's not the same as $14 every 4 weeks, because $14/month is $168 per year, but $14 every 4 weeks is $182.49 per year. They said they will charge $14 every 4 weeks, and I decided to cancel because of their scammy offer.

gnicholas 5y ago
For years, every AT&T and Comcast salesperson I talked with quoted me megabytes per second instead of megabits per second. They would insist that they were right if I ever asked them to clarify the units of measurement. One time the salesperson was so sure that he was right that he conferenced in a tech support person…who informed him they did not sell megabytes/second, only megabits. The salesperson was very confused. I no longer even bother asking anymore.
- edtruji 5y ago
  My believe was that this happen as a human error, from non technical persons (not everybody is a CCNA certified or Comptia network plus). For example people will often say give me that liter of wine, when in fact the bottle it’s 750ml and not a liter per se.
  - BombNullIsland 5y ago
    "For example people will often say give me that liter of wine, when in fact the bottle it’s 750ml" No one has ever said this. Ever. In the history of ever. Wine and spirits in the US were sold as "fifths" or one fifth of a US gallon, equal to 757ml. This became a "metric fifth" or 750ml. No one is even slightly confused by this.
    - unlikelymordant 5y ago
      There are many countries where litre is the only unit of measurement, perhaps it happened in one of those?

eli 5y ago

A newspaper isn't a monolith and, by design, the members of the editorial board have very little connection to the business side of the newspaper. You're absolutely right to call out bad behavior of the subscription department, but the "liar, liar" heading is unfair.

rock_hard 5y ago
Looking forward to read the editorial coverage of this story
dominotw 5y ago
> A newspaper isn't a monolith Neither is amazon.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
elefanten 5y ago
Given the NYT’s overall style and editorial choices these days, it’s a fair heading more broadly. Prime case in point: They have elevated opinionated moral crusading over responsible and informative reporting. If moral activism is the value the organization purports to elevate, it’s fair to call the organization dishonest when it employs transparently immoral business practices. Whether the editorial board is involved or not.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
anarazel 5y ago

ec109685 5y ago

Best way to ensure easy subscription cancelling is via an in-app purchase. Then cancelling is a few clicks without talking to anyone.

contriban 5y ago
Indeed but that costs more. I got 12 months at $1/month as a promotional offer. If it lets me, I might restart it (even if I don’t read much at all)

Macha 5y ago

I've considered actually subscribing to news media but the behaviour of the NYT and a few known others have left me not to trust the entire industry to behave responsibly with a subscription, so I am at least 1 anecdote of someone not subscribing because of knowledge of the cancellation process

nireyal 5y ago
Excellent! This is exactly what I describe in the post. This is why dark patterns are bad for the business.
dmitrij 5y ago
Same with me. In my case, the Economist, who does the same like the New York Times. Subscribing is a click, canceling is a call to a representative who will talk to me about how they "love to discuss a more affordable or flexible subscription option so that you can keep enjoying everything The Economist has to offer" https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-do-I-cancel-my-subscription https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-do-I-cancel-my...
- hanklazard 5y ago
  I remember that same experience, really annoying. These days I’ve been using Privacy.com which generates a one-time use CC for anything that I want to use for the free trial period. (I am in no way affiliated with this service btw, just a happy customer).
  - nine_k 5y ago
    Many banks allow you to create a virtual CC.
- atty 5y ago
  The economist was my first experience with this tactic, and I promised myself I’d never sign up again, no matter how good a deal they offered.

sebmellen 5y ago

For me, https://privacy.com https://privacy.com has been a lifesaver in situations like this. Can't cancel a subscription? Just cancel the card. Voilà!

eli 5y ago
Don’t try that with a gym membership or similar. They will come after you.
- sebmellen 5y ago
  Yeah, definitely an important disclaimer. Generally speaking I try not to sign up for any service where the terms are deeply onerous or the industry has a bad reputation (like with gyms). For most SaaS and other online subscription models, I've found that cancelling a card is a pretty easy way to let the subscription lapse.
- Drew_ 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on "come after you"? I would definitely use this type of option for gym subscriptions when given the chance.
  - eli 5y ago
    Send you to collections and ding your credit or perhaps even sue you.

adambard 5y ago

I had the same experience cancelling my subscription. I was able to avoid the sales pitch the author received (I guess I was a little firmer), but I doubt I'll be subscribing again after I realized there was no unsubscribe button.

mapgrep 5y ago

I have adopted a zen posture to this sort of hypocrisy which involves believing both these things: 1. It is good to call out hypocrisy like this article does where a publishing entity is engaged in behavior completely contrary to the behavior called for in their published words. 2. It is also good that the reporter’s journalism is sufficiently free (as in freedom) that they are able to write so independently of the behavior of the mother ship. Like, the world would definitely be a worse place if reporters at Bloomberg declined to do some of the excellent reporting they’ve done on tech company tax dodges just because (hypothetically) Bloomberg was a tech company that did some corporate tax dodging. It’s good that they do it. It’s also fine that people note the cognitive dissonance. It’s sort of like how I feel about Googlers protesting sexual harassment or the China search project. Personally I still think they are affiliated with a company that engages in a lot of bad practices but good on them for at least trying to change some thing however small. And at the same time I feel free to say “well ya they’re protesting this guy who was abusing his underlings but their company is abusing all of us” or whatever.

alephnan 5y ago
The hypocrisy in employees is when they continue to reap the financial benefits of their institutions. The cliche “you can’t expect a person to know a subject if their salary depends on not knowing it.” Ignorance is not a valid excuse when they’ve clearly indicated an outspoken awareness of the problems in the org. The excuse in this case is “instituting change from within”
nireyal 5y ago
I agree. But also before hitting publish they should have done a quick check of their own UX. This would have shown a good faith effort as opposed to a hypocritical take-down. It would have also illustrated a richer perspective on why these types of dark patterns get built into products in the first place, as I write in the second half of the essay.
dialtone 5y ago
It's really not alright to step on the pulpit to point fingers left and right when your house is also not in order, it makes it seem more like you're trying to move forward your business agenda rather than really caring about the issue.

Someone1234 5y ago

If a company does this, I am NEVER subscribing again. Whereas if a company makes cancelling/renewing super painless I'm going to come and go as a customer as it fits my needs. This results in more overall business for the company. I am literally going through this right now: A company called "Ooma" makes dongles that provide voice-over-IP for landline phones (inc. a telephone number), for $10/month with "no contract." But our use-case isn't every month, it is once every few months, and they require call-to-cancel/hassle-to-cancel, so now we're reviewing alternatives that are more legitimately flexible. They're literally going to lose my recurring business only because of this anti-consumer practice.

nireyal 5y ago
Yes! Good for you, bad for Ooma and other companies who use this dark pattern.
clcaev 5y ago
FWIW, I've been a happy voip.ms customer for a decade or so.
mdoms 5y ago
I subscribed to The Economist for a quarter. Loved it, read every article in every issue. I ran into some slightly difficult times so I decided to cancel, intending to pick it back up later. But their cancellation process was full of dark patterns (ultimately I had to make a phone call to an operator in Singapore) and there's simply no way in hell I'll ever come back. I cancelled my Netflix at the same time and have come and gone several times since, as they make it as easy as possible.

GhostVII 5y ago

Normally I'm not a huge fan of throwing in new laws but I do think it would be reasonable to legislate that unsubscribing from a service must be as easy as subscribing. If we are going to give companies the legal ability to auto-charge you each month, we should give people the legal ability to stop that at any time easily.

Macha 5y ago
California has done that, and hence NYT allows you to unsubscribe online without this hassle if it's IP geo-detection detects you're in california, which exposes this as the business/retention decision it is and not a technical limitation.
sofixa 5y ago
> Normally I'm not a huge fan of throwing in new laws but I do think it would be reasonable to legislate that unsubscribing from a service must be as easy as subscribing But the free market will regulate itself! /s What else are laws for?

dang 5y ago

There was a thread about this recently: The New York Times criticizes dark patterns, but fails to criticize themselves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27120686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27120686 - May 2021 (31 comments)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

interpol_p 5y ago

I don't understand how dark patterns like these are ever a good long-term business strategy for a company You drain user trust for short term gain. What is the point of continuing to take someone's money if they no longer use your product? If someone doesn't want my product, I sure as hell don't want their money and would be embarrassed if they ever paid by mistake

nireyal 5y ago
That's exactly right! I think just as interesting is how good people make such bad decisions within a company. That's why I wrote in the article that using dark patterns is a symptom of a screwed up company culture.

nireyal 5y ago

Nir here, author of the blog post. Question - Did anyone else notice that the NYT did not accurately describe what the "roach motel" dark pattern is in their original piece? They wrote, "To prevent your information from being shared with third parties, you have to opt out after the payment screen." But that's not the roach motel, that's a default. According to DarkPatterns dot org, a roach motel is when the "...design makes it very easy for you to get into a certain situation, but then makes it hard for you to get out of it." Why did the NYT get something like this wrong?

andrewflnr 5y ago
Is darkpatterns.org a real authority?
- mdoms 5y ago
  It's written by Henry Brignull who literally wrote the book on dark patterns, acts as an expert witness on dark patterns and I'm pretty sure originally coined the term "roach motel" (in this context) so.... yes?

chakalakasp 5y ago

LPT: sub things using a Privacy virtual debit card. If unsubbing is hard, email the company you want to unsubscribe and then shut the card off with a single click. They tend to unsub you quickly when you stop paying.

smbv 5y ago

This reminded me of the time where I read somewhere (I don't have the source, unfortunately) that the fastest way to cancel the NYT(?) subscription online over the chat was to say "I am going to jail."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

shitRETARDSsay 5y ago

Ironically, there's no "Unsubscribe" link anywhere visible on the author's website for his newsletter. You have to wait for his weekly mail or add "unsubscribe" to the URL.

fnord77 5y ago

I think apple's in-app ads have the worst dark patterns. I tried to find a game for my elderly mom that didn't try to get you to install some other app every few minutes via a full-screen popup. No dice.

tracer4201 5y ago

The irony is NYT ran an article chastising Amazon for the very thing they also engage in. I recently had to call NYT to cancel my membership. The person on the other side ran me through a script, and each time I told them I didn’t want their counter offers. It was annoying. To be honest here, I canceled my NYT subscription because of the very subtle yet obvious propaganda laced in their articles on a recent news event. They present themselves as honest reporters, when in reality there’s language that in a subtle manner takes a clear side and provides a distorted view of a complex situation. The honest truth in my opinion is the NYT isn’t honest or more objective than other papers. Yet time and time again, their reporting is viewed as gospel.

MangoCoffee 5y ago
>call NYT to cancel my membership if you can sign up for the membership online. there is no reason to call anyone to cancel. Netflix is by far the best subscription service. i have sub, unsub and resub several time with just few clicks.

pabs3 5y ago

Hmm, the author's post contains lots of tracking images/scripts.

darkhorse22 5y ago

NYT's GDPR compliance UI is hilariously user-hostile. You can't even opt out. There's no chance this is accidental.

naturalauction 5y ago

Kinda related but the NYT somehow kept on charging me even after I froze and then closed a privacy.com card associated with the account (this went on for months). No idea how it happened but I eventually had to spend 30 minutes going through the maze to cancel.