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You have a great point, but let's balance this out with a few of the author's other comments. - OP uses the phrasing senior engineer. - Never worked for FAANG

You have a great point, but let's balance this out with a few of the author's other comments. - OP uses the phrasing senior engineer. - Never worked for FAANG. This is relevant because $120k + bonus/benefits is basically a FAANG new grad. Fairly normal for SV tech companies. - Those numbers likely provide a solid standard of living, but as a senior engineer you are likely underpaid. - Esoteric and proprietary knowledge means if you choose to go elsewhere, you will be at a competitive disadvantage compared to using industry standard tools. There are of course tradeoffs and lots of general learning that comes with experience, but all other things equal it's a disadvantage. > I guess those numbers also explain why the author can recommend maxing out the 401k Yes, but again fairly typical for the target audience I think. There are even startups trying to target this market to optimize the flow of money from salary -> 401k -> post tax contributions/megabackdoor -> other investments, brokerage accounts, etc., e.g. https://www.helloplaybook.com/ https://www.helloplaybook.com/ Just as a sanity check, BLS suggests the median SWE wages work out to ~$110k. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

giantg2 5y ago
I'm an intermediate dev, masters degree, 9 years experience, non-FAANG, higher cost of living area (not SV, NYC or NVA), and work with obscure tech and proprietary tools. It sucks that I suck. Oh well.
- alexeldeib 5y ago
  I really didn't mean for the comment to come across that way. I fully agreed with "it sounds great because it is great". I just wanted to provide another perspective too.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    No, I completely get that. I'm just adding some of my background to show my thoughts. I know there are other areas and other people that command higher prices.
    - linuxftw 5y ago
      Learn the skills for the job you want, claim you do that stuff on your current resume (within reason), and jump ship. Most prospective employers won't push too hard with needing references from your current place of employment. Find your best mate at your last job, edit that portion of your resume, and fill them in on the details.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        I've been at the same company for 9 years straight out of college. The company doesn't allow employees to give any references for people who are leaving.
        lostcolony 5y ago
        If you're in the US, there is only an -infinitesimal- chance that they'll actually ask for references for a software job. They'll likely run a background check and make sure your resume isn't obviously lying (they'll confirm start/end dates and title, basically), and make sure you're not a criminal, MAYBE do a credit and/or drug test.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  You might suck, but it seems more likely that you're getting ripped off by an employer who hopes you don't know what your skills are worth. Are you on LinkedIn? Do you ever speak with recruiters about other opportunities? That's a great way to get a feel for the 'market rate' for your skillset in your area. When's the last time you changed jobs?
  - treis 5y ago
    They're stuck because they work with proprietary tools on obscure tech. Nobody else wants them because their experience doesn't translate. I recently made the transition but it was extremely difficult. I ended up with 1 offer after ~10 or so interviews and ~50 or so applications.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Yeah, this is my situation. I am AWS certified and started working on a team that uses it, sort of. So maybe I can transition off of there in a year or two because the subject matter sucks.
      - bravura 5y ago
        Get. Out.
      - geitir 5y ago
        Programming is programming no matter the language, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are all just tools. If you have a masters degree you should be able to pick up anything proficiently in a matter of a few months, just grok the existing codebase as much as you can.
        giantg2 5y ago
        The programming part is easy to pick up. The tools and ops parts are more difficult, mostly because there are so many. And we are a 'microservices' shop (read distributed monolith). I don't get to read/work a single system or language. One sprint/day I might be in ECS Java, the next might be Python Lambda, then no code stuff like Splunk and Tableau. There are a bunch of minor and bureaucratic tasks too. The real problem is I deal with this sort of stuff. I started doing analysis about modifying a system to provide a new field to another system for the purpose of reporting. After spending a day looking at it, they pulled the story because they didn't actually need that field. And this isn't a one time thing - pulling back work. Then they give me BS stuff. They wanted me to increase the code coverage on an app that we were going to transfer to another team. The target percentage - 100%. It was already at 97% line 98% branch. Why am I wasting my time on this miserable task?
- Olreich 5y ago
  Obscure tech and proprietary tools do translate… if you can translate them. Programming languages are all the same, so learn 3 or 4 new ones and discover that you can probably write in any language for an interview (then do some in relatively unfamiliar languages for kicks and giggles to practice). Tech is all the same. Take data in, poop data out. That’s the whole job. The formats and protocols change, but once you starting thinking about your stacks as data-in, data-out, they all start looking the same. Make video games or hardware drivers from scratch, those are the hardest things to make. Video games from complexity overload, and hardware drivers from interface complexity.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I already know Python, Java, Java for Android, Neoxam script, scripts (bash, bat), and Angular to some degree. I've also used JS, AngularJS, C++, C#, powershell, assembly (Intel), and COBOL in the past. So yeah, stuff translates and it isn't that hard to learn a new language (neoxam is probably the hardest since there is limited documentation and examples). I don't have any interests in games or drivers. Those aren't applicable in my company either. I am currently working on an Angular site. I will host it on S3 with a Lambda and maybe SQS for a marketing email list. This is tech that we use at my job, and many other places.
ksec 5y ago
>This is relevant because $120k + bonus/benefits is basically a FAANG new grad. Fairly normal for SV tech companies. There were a few post on HN recently about fresh grad asking for / being paid $200K and anything lower they felt they were feeling lowballed. For those of us outside US we could never quite grasp whether something is true or not. Salary across the pond is just incomprehensible.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I think they are being serious. If you're in silicon valley, I could see $200k being a new grad salary. I wouldn't move there for less than that. The cost of living is extremely high in that area. The vast majority of areas would have much lower salaries. My starting salary was less than $60k. After 9 years and a masters it's still under $100k in a medium-high cost of living area. Median salary for a developer is about $110k in the US.
  - alexeldeib 5y ago
    Meant to reply to you but replied to parent by accident. $200k total comp seems plausible. $200k salary seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Companies would much rather give you a fat cash bonus or stock than raise the salary so high.
- alexeldeib 5y ago
  $200k for salary for a new grad strikes me as being on the (unrealistically?) high side. You'd need to be quite talented and have negotiating leverage for this. FAANG generally won't offer this out the gate. That kind of salary would buy senior devs no problem, even in big tech cities. $200k total comp, absolutely. A standard new grad offer with no negotiation might be something like $120k salary, $25k cash, $120k options vesting over 4 years with 6 month periods. So in the first year, no negotiation, you're taking home $177k pre-tax. I know people who have gotten up to $60k cash bonuses (split over two years) out of college, simply by having another offer.

giantg2 5y ago

I'm an intermediate dev, masters degree, 9 years experience, non-FAANG, higher cost of living area (not SV, NYC or NVA), and work with obscure tech and proprietary tools. It sucks that I suck. Oh well.

alexeldeib 5y ago
I really didn't mean for the comment to come across that way. I fully agreed with "it sounds great because it is great". I just wanted to provide another perspective too.
- giantg2 5y ago
  No, I completely get that. I'm just adding some of my background to show my thoughts. I know there are other areas and other people that command higher prices.
  - linuxftw 5y ago
    Learn the skills for the job you want, claim you do that stuff on your current resume (within reason), and jump ship. Most prospective employers won't push too hard with needing references from your current place of employment. Find your best mate at your last job, edit that portion of your resume, and fill them in on the details.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      I've been at the same company for 9 years straight out of college. The company doesn't allow employees to give any references for people who are leaving.
      - lostcolony 5y ago
        If you're in the US, there is only an -infinitesimal- chance that they'll actually ask for references for a software job. They'll likely run a background check and make sure your resume isn't obviously lying (they'll confirm start/end dates and title, basically), and make sure you're not a criminal, MAYBE do a credit and/or drug test.
marcusverus 5y ago
You might suck, but it seems more likely that you're getting ripped off by an employer who hopes you don't know what your skills are worth. Are you on LinkedIn? Do you ever speak with recruiters about other opportunities? That's a great way to get a feel for the 'market rate' for your skillset in your area. When's the last time you changed jobs?
- treis 5y ago
  They're stuck because they work with proprietary tools on obscure tech. Nobody else wants them because their experience doesn't translate. I recently made the transition but it was extremely difficult. I ended up with 1 offer after ~10 or so interviews and ~50 or so applications.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Yeah, this is my situation. I am AWS certified and started working on a team that uses it, sort of. So maybe I can transition off of there in a year or two because the subject matter sucks.
    - bravura 5y ago
      Get. Out.
    - geitir 5y ago
      Programming is programming no matter the language, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are all just tools. If you have a masters degree you should be able to pick up anything proficiently in a matter of a few months, just grok the existing codebase as much as you can.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        The programming part is easy to pick up. The tools and ops parts are more difficult, mostly because there are so many. And we are a 'microservices' shop (read distributed monolith). I don't get to read/work a single system or language. One sprint/day I might be in ECS Java, the next might be Python Lambda, then no code stuff like Splunk and Tableau. There are a bunch of minor and bureaucratic tasks too. The real problem is I deal with this sort of stuff. I started doing analysis about modifying a system to provide a new field to another system for the purpose of reporting. After spending a day looking at it, they pulled the story because they didn't actually need that field. And this isn't a one time thing - pulling back work. Then they give me BS stuff. They wanted me to increase the code coverage on an app that we were going to transfer to another team. The target percentage - 100%. It was already at 97% line 98% branch. Why am I wasting my time on this miserable task?
Olreich 5y ago
Obscure tech and proprietary tools do translate… if you can translate them. Programming languages are all the same, so learn 3 or 4 new ones and discover that you can probably write in any language for an interview (then do some in relatively unfamiliar languages for kicks and giggles to practice). Tech is all the same. Take data in, poop data out. That’s the whole job. The formats and protocols change, but once you starting thinking about your stacks as data-in, data-out, they all start looking the same. Make video games or hardware drivers from scratch, those are the hardest things to make. Video games from complexity overload, and hardware drivers from interface complexity.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I already know Python, Java, Java for Android, Neoxam script, scripts (bash, bat), and Angular to some degree. I've also used JS, AngularJS, C++, C#, powershell, assembly (Intel), and COBOL in the past. So yeah, stuff translates and it isn't that hard to learn a new language (neoxam is probably the hardest since there is limited documentation and examples). I don't have any interests in games or drivers. Those aren't applicable in my company either. I am currently working on an Angular site. I will host it on S3 with a Lambda and maybe SQS for a marketing email list. This is tech that we use at my job, and many other places.

ksec 5y ago

>This is relevant because $120k + bonus/benefits is basically a FAANG new grad. Fairly normal for SV tech companies. There were a few post on HN recently about fresh grad asking for / being paid $200K and anything lower they felt they were feeling lowballed. For those of us outside US we could never quite grasp whether something is true or not. Salary across the pond is just incomprehensible.

giantg2 5y ago
I think they are being serious. If you're in silicon valley, I could see $200k being a new grad salary. I wouldn't move there for less than that. The cost of living is extremely high in that area. The vast majority of areas would have much lower salaries. My starting salary was less than $60k. After 9 years and a masters it's still under $100k in a medium-high cost of living area. Median salary for a developer is about $110k in the US.
- alexeldeib 5y ago
  Meant to reply to you but replied to parent by accident. $200k total comp seems plausible. $200k salary seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Companies would much rather give you a fat cash bonus or stock than raise the salary so high.
alexeldeib 5y ago
$200k for salary for a new grad strikes me as being on the (unrealistically?) high side. You'd need to be quite talented and have negotiating leverage for this. FAANG generally won't offer this out the gate. That kind of salary would buy senior devs no problem, even in big tech cities. $200k total comp, absolutely. A standard new grad offer with no negotiation might be something like $120k salary, $25k cash, $120k options vesting over 4 years with 6 month periods. So in the first year, no negotiation, you're taking home $177k pre-tax. I know people who have gotten up to $60k cash bonuses (split over two years) out of college, simply by having another offer.