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I could waste a huge amount of time refuting the author's points, but will make it more of a meta comment. Crypto is vast, complex, and inherently not suitable

by fleddr 5y ago

I could waste a huge amount of time refuting the author's points, but will make it more of a meta comment. Crypto is vast, complex, and inherently not suitable for binary thinking. I've studied the space for months and have come to the conclusion that crypto is two-sided in almost every aspect. Many/most coins are speculative, which you can associate with words like "greed" and "casino". Yet also provide wealth savings/growth to people locked out of it in our traditional system. NFTs are a cruel joke right now, yet ridiculous as they are, may be a precursor to various groundbreaking uses having real utility, in an exponential way. Smart contracts are largely dysfunctional, yet there's early success in replacing financial products like staking, lending, leverage. When it works, it's permission-less, which has interesting social benefits (access not defined by your identity/social class). And so on. I'm not here to debate any of these points, my only point is to not dismiss crypto as a whole (binary thinking) and to not underestimate it. The topic is too complex for it.

msoad 5y ago
Crypto == Cryptography over here. Just FYI
- ertian 5y ago
  Huh? Not in the original article, or in OPs reply, unless I'm seriously misunderstanding him. He's talking about the pros/cons of cryptocurrency.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    The twitter thread mostly uses the full term "cryptocurrency", which is not ambigous. Using the term "crypto" to refer to cryptocurrency is amigous and misleading.
    - itisit 5y ago
      > Using the term "crypto" to refer to cryptocurrency is amigous and misleading. To whom? “Crypto” is the colloquial shorthand for “cryptocurrency”. And I believe those thinking otherwise are reacting to the new usage encroaching on the old. Petty hill to die on…
      - adambatkin 5y ago
        The "crypto" world, as in Cryptography has far more practitioners and far more hardware and software than cryptocurrency. And most of of the world's communications (among other things) rely on "crypto" as in Cryptography. The "old" usage (as you put it) remains orders of magnitude more instrumental to all of our lives than blockchain technologies (which is a far more accurate name). And will remain so, for the rest of all of our lives.
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        > To whom? To everyone outside the cryptocurrency social bubble. > And I believe those thinking otherwise are reacting to the new usage encroaching on the old. Petty hill to die on… I think it is pretty silly to deliberately use an ambiguous term when better ones exist.
- thirsteh 5y ago
  This battle has been lost my friend. The new cyber and crypto are here to stay :)
Popegaf 5y ago
The link is to a twitter (aka the cesspool of the internet). I do not expect anything non-binary to come out of there. The most sensationalist tweets get posted here all the time. It's not worth anybody's time taking them seriously.
lifty 5y ago
This is the most reasonable comment in this whole thread. It’s good to acknowledge the current mania and the type of unethical behavior it attracts, but it would be intellectually lazy to dismiss the whole field.
- rriepe 5y ago
  We prefer the term "intellectually efficient."
- fleddr 5y ago
  Not even a fairly neutral "it depends" does well here. Ah well, I'll accept it for what it is.
cbzbc 5y ago
> Crypto is vast, complex, and inherently not suitable for binary thinking. I've studied the space for months and have come to the conclusion that crypto is two-sided in almost every aspect Is this a bit?
- knorker 5y ago
  It's straight out of the coiner mantra playbook. I've talked religion with more free thinking open minded Jehovah's witnesses.
magila 5y ago
People have been saying this for over a decade now. Mainstream applications are just around the corner, wait and see! We have waited, and all we've seen is baseless speculation (which you call "wealth savings/growth") and scams. I see no reason to think this is going to change any time soon.
- throwaway743 5y ago
  I mean, it is being adopted by pay processors like Square, PayPal, and Cash App, and is being accepted by some large retailers like Newegg and Overstock. Wouldn't discredit that as not being progress :/
  - loceng 5y ago
    Cash App is Square.
  - magila 5y ago
    This is another thing cryptocurrency enthusiasts have been doing for a long time: name dropping some companies who are supposedly embracing bitcoin but without any evidence of actual user adoption. Newegg and Overstock don't even take payment in bitcoin. They allow you to use a third party processor to exchange bitcoin for USD then immediately transfer the funds to the retailer. There's no evidence that these payment mechanisms have ever been more than a rounding error in these retailer's sales.
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      > ...without any evidence of actual user adoption. For example of Square: > Its mobile payment service Cash App has been its flagship product. However, in recent times, while Square reported that cash transactions at its U.S. merchants as a percentage of overall transactions fell from more than 50% in 2015 to around 30% today, the bulk of the company’s revenue this past year – around 56% – came from Bitcoin transactions. Over the past year, revenue from bitcoin was $1.8 billion – a whopping 10X increase over 2019’s revenues in this category. [0] So this 10X increase isn't an indicator of adoption then, they just made up this figure? [0] https://leverageshares.com/en/insights/square-paypal-catalysing-crypto-adoption/ https://leverageshares.com/en/insights/square-paypal-catalys...
knorker 5y ago
It's always so convenient that cryptocurrency/smart contract proponents "can't be bothered" to give actual arguments. Your comment here is a poster child of "I don't have time to explain, so please take these baseless assertions that you are wrong. Sorry I have to go now, for unrelated reasons". It's a cliche at this point.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  It's not like pinboard made any actual arguments in his tweet storm, either, unless you count "we all know that cryptocurrency is a scam" as an argument.
  - knorker 5y ago
    If this were in isolation then yes I'd agree. And twitter is not the best way to make points. But I'm pointing out that this is ALWAYS the argument pro-cryptocurrency. It's not this instance, but a pattern. Cryptocurrency people refute entire books and deep analysis (from actual experts) with "everything you just said is wrong, but I have to go now so can't say why". It's not this in isolation, but the fact that it's a cliche that's the thing.
- fleddr 5y ago
  You have thing upside down. Crypto, its fast-moving technology and implications on the financial system, economics, politics and the media is so vast that it costs thousands of hours to study. Your strategy is to say "you're wrong, prove me right". No, I won't be writing book-length comments here to convince some internet stranger whom is categorically against it. I have no burden of proof. I'm not even a proponent or opponent. All I said is that it's complicated and two-sided, to keep an open mind. I'm not here to explain you crypto.
  - maxbond 5y ago
    If you don't have an argument to make, perhaps it's better to say nothing? When you come out and say, things are too complex to make an argument, it can read like FUD and whataboutism. As if you are attacking an idea that an argument _can_ be made. I'm sure you didn't set out to muddy the waters, but after having muddied them in the middle of a lively debate, I think this is the sort of response you should expect to receive. Coherent arguments against cryptocurrencies are readily available. The case for cryptocurrencies is shifting, contradictory, and often nonsensical. This means something. It matters.
baby 5y ago
I’m in the field and I would be careful with OP’s pov. I don’t trust the opinion of a bitcoin maximalist as much as I don’t trust the opinion of someone who has little clue about the field. Someone saying that crypto will replace the USD = someone saying that crypto has no usecase and is only used for fraud. Unfortunately it really takes a lot to have an opinion on the field imo. Money is very abstract and so you need an understanding of crypto, of economics, and of how payments work in the world today.
defterGoose 5y ago
Who is "locked out" of the traditional system? The stock market seems easier to get into than ever. I always hear this as a dig of the existing structures but its starting to sound just like the other pro-crypto memes out there. Edit: No refutation? Just downvotes? Ok then.
- Siira 5y ago
  I am for one, living here in Iran, where in the last year millions lost money by "investing" in the regime's "stock market." I didn't, lucky me. Now the inflation has taken my money instead. Not to mention the taxes, which keep growing YoY, while basic government services such as electricity is regressing to being daily down for hours. Consensus algorithms are inevitable. Either we use our current corrupt, politically-driven consensus system, which exploits workers, minorities, and generally anyone not rich and powerful, or we bother to engineer some consensus algorithms that has some bounds on the corruption possible within it.

by fleddr 5y ago

msoad 5y ago

Crypto == Cryptography over here. Just FYI

ertian 5y ago
Huh? Not in the original article, or in OPs reply, unless I'm seriously misunderstanding him. He's talking about the pros/cons of cryptocurrency.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  The twitter thread mostly uses the full term "cryptocurrency", which is not ambigous. Using the term "crypto" to refer to cryptocurrency is amigous and misleading.
  - itisit 5y ago
    > Using the term "crypto" to refer to cryptocurrency is amigous and misleading. To whom? “Crypto” is the colloquial shorthand for “cryptocurrency”. And I believe those thinking otherwise are reacting to the new usage encroaching on the old. Petty hill to die on…
    - adambatkin 5y ago
      The "crypto" world, as in Cryptography has far more practitioners and far more hardware and software than cryptocurrency. And most of of the world's communications (among other things) rely on "crypto" as in Cryptography. The "old" usage (as you put it) remains orders of magnitude more instrumental to all of our lives than blockchain technologies (which is a far more accurate name). And will remain so, for the rest of all of our lives.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > To whom? To everyone outside the cryptocurrency social bubble. > And I believe those thinking otherwise are reacting to the new usage encroaching on the old. Petty hill to die on… I think it is pretty silly to deliberately use an ambiguous term when better ones exist.
thirsteh 5y ago
This battle has been lost my friend. The new cyber and crypto are here to stay :)

Popegaf 5y ago

The link is to a twitter (aka the cesspool of the internet). I do not expect anything non-binary to come out of there. The most sensationalist tweets get posted here all the time. It's not worth anybody's time taking them seriously.

lifty 5y ago

This is the most reasonable comment in this whole thread. It’s good to acknowledge the current mania and the type of unethical behavior it attracts, but it would be intellectually lazy to dismiss the whole field.

rriepe 5y ago
We prefer the term "intellectually efficient."
fleddr 5y ago
Not even a fairly neutral "it depends" does well here. Ah well, I'll accept it for what it is.

cbzbc 5y ago

> Crypto is vast, complex, and inherently not suitable for binary thinking. I've studied the space for months and have come to the conclusion that crypto is two-sided in almost every aspect Is this a bit?

knorker 5y ago
It's straight out of the coiner mantra playbook. I've talked religion with more free thinking open minded Jehovah's witnesses.

magila 5y ago

People have been saying this for over a decade now. Mainstream applications are just around the corner, wait and see! We have waited, and all we've seen is baseless speculation (which you call "wealth savings/growth") and scams. I see no reason to think this is going to change any time soon.

throwaway743 5y ago
I mean, it is being adopted by pay processors like Square, PayPal, and Cash App, and is being accepted by some large retailers like Newegg and Overstock. Wouldn't discredit that as not being progress :/
- loceng 5y ago
  Cash App is Square.
- magila 5y ago
  This is another thing cryptocurrency enthusiasts have been doing for a long time: name dropping some companies who are supposedly embracing bitcoin but without any evidence of actual user adoption. Newegg and Overstock don't even take payment in bitcoin. They allow you to use a third party processor to exchange bitcoin for USD then immediately transfer the funds to the retailer. There's no evidence that these payment mechanisms have ever been more than a rounding error in these retailer's sales.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    > ...without any evidence of actual user adoption. For example of Square: > Its mobile payment service Cash App has been its flagship product. However, in recent times, while Square reported that cash transactions at its U.S. merchants as a percentage of overall transactions fell from more than 50% in 2015 to around 30% today, the bulk of the company’s revenue this past year – around 56% – came from Bitcoin transactions. Over the past year, revenue from bitcoin was $1.8 billion – a whopping 10X increase over 2019’s revenues in this category. [0] So this 10X increase isn't an indicator of adoption then, they just made up this figure? [0] https://leverageshares.com/en/insights/square-paypal-catalysing-crypto-adoption/ https://leverageshares.com/en/insights/square-paypal-catalys...

knorker 5y ago

It's always so convenient that cryptocurrency/smart contract proponents "can't be bothered" to give actual arguments. Your comment here is a poster child of "I don't have time to explain, so please take these baseless assertions that you are wrong. Sorry I have to go now, for unrelated reasons". It's a cliche at this point.

AlexCoventry 5y ago
It's not like pinboard made any actual arguments in his tweet storm, either, unless you count "we all know that cryptocurrency is a scam" as an argument.
- knorker 5y ago
  If this were in isolation then yes I'd agree. And twitter is not the best way to make points. But I'm pointing out that this is ALWAYS the argument pro-cryptocurrency. It's not this instance, but a pattern. Cryptocurrency people refute entire books and deep analysis (from actual experts) with "everything you just said is wrong, but I have to go now so can't say why". It's not this in isolation, but the fact that it's a cliche that's the thing.
fleddr 5y ago
You have thing upside down. Crypto, its fast-moving technology and implications on the financial system, economics, politics and the media is so vast that it costs thousands of hours to study. Your strategy is to say "you're wrong, prove me right". No, I won't be writing book-length comments here to convince some internet stranger whom is categorically against it. I have no burden of proof. I'm not even a proponent or opponent. All I said is that it's complicated and two-sided, to keep an open mind. I'm not here to explain you crypto.
- maxbond 5y ago
  If you don't have an argument to make, perhaps it's better to say nothing? When you come out and say, things are too complex to make an argument, it can read like FUD and whataboutism. As if you are attacking an idea that an argument _can_ be made. I'm sure you didn't set out to muddy the waters, but after having muddied them in the middle of a lively debate, I think this is the sort of response you should expect to receive. Coherent arguments against cryptocurrencies are readily available. The case for cryptocurrencies is shifting, contradictory, and often nonsensical. This means something. It matters.

baby 5y ago

I’m in the field and I would be careful with OP’s pov. I don’t trust the opinion of a bitcoin maximalist as much as I don’t trust the opinion of someone who has little clue about the field. Someone saying that crypto will replace the USD = someone saying that crypto has no usecase and is only used for fraud. Unfortunately it really takes a lot to have an opinion on the field imo. Money is very abstract and so you need an understanding of crypto, of economics, and of how payments work in the world today.

defterGoose 5y ago

Who is "locked out" of the traditional system? The stock market seems easier to get into than ever. I always hear this as a dig of the existing structures but its starting to sound just like the other pro-crypto memes out there. Edit: No refutation? Just downvotes? Ok then.

Siira 5y ago
I am for one, living here in Iran, where in the last year millions lost money by "investing" in the regime's "stock market." I didn't, lucky me. Now the inflation has taken my money instead. Not to mention the taxes, which keep growing YoY, while basic government services such as electricity is regressing to being daily down for hours. Consensus algorithms are inevitable. Either we use our current corrupt, politically-driven consensus system, which exploits workers, minorities, and generally anyone not rich and powerful, or we bother to engineer some consensus algorithms that has some bounds on the corruption possible within it.