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> And we just let them do this. And by “we” I hope you mean consumers as much as the people who built this. Some may say this is a systemic problem and I don’t

> And we just let them do this. And by “we” I hope you mean consumers as much as the people who built this. Some may say this is a systemic problem and I don’t necessarily disagree with that but I think that narrative obscures the fact that the average person literally does not care. Maybe privacy-conscious tech nerds on the internet care but normal people really do not care at all because if they did they would not consent to it when purchasing an iPhone or Android. The public is well-aware of the lack of privacy of these devices yet their behavior does not change. If you are a tech person who cares about your privacy then buy a Linux phone. Apple and google and government are not going to change this when there is no significant public will to change this.

titzer 5y ago
> but normal people really do not care at all because if they did they would not consent to it when purchasing an iPhone or Android. These platforms literally do everything possible to obscure what you are actually agreeing to. Google, for instance, has lawyers sign off on privacy design docs that set the verbiage on dialogs that users agree to. The lawyers are there to make sure it is as vague and as broad possible while being up to a hair's breadth of what is legally defensible. Consumers are deliberately kept in the dark. One might say they are naive and trusting. But most would absolutely disapprove if they sat at the "God console" and saw other people's lives the way the vast towers of computing power and machine learning can. It's like a wireframe view of an ant farm, but with people.
- CyberRabbi 5y ago
  > But most would absolutely disapprove if they sat at the "God console" and saw other people's lives the way the vast towers of computing power and machine learning can. Sure maybe they would disapprove but they would probably still use their phones even after being horrified by the god console. The fact is that the average person is already aware their phone is spying on them without being told by the manufacturer yet they still use their phones. On a visceral level, the benefit of their phone far outweighs abstract privacy concerns. For example, a troubling amount of people were seriously paranoid about 5G somehow causing them harm. What percentage of that group do you think will continue to use their 5G phone? I would guess upward of 80%
  - titzer 5y ago
    > What percentage of that group do you think will continue to use their 5G phone? I would guess upward of 80% I know. But people still smoke even after seeing pictures of cancer-ridden lungs. We're all little crack addicts.
    - CyberRabbi 5y ago
      > But people still smoke even after seeing pictures of cancer-ridden lungs. Great point all around. Similar to the smoking problem, I think if we want behavior around privacy to change it will require large amounts of funding and public campaigns. I think it’s unlikely there will be a grassroots effort.
  - squarefoot 5y ago
    > On a visceral level, the benefit of their phone far outweighs abstract privacy concerns. True. Most have been fed the "if you have nothing to hide..." bullshit for too long, so they now think only criminals must have something to hide, which is nonsense, and paves the way to potentially horrific development if taken to the letter.
- shaftway 5y ago
  I get that it feels like that. I've been on the other side of these discussions and it's painful there too. I've spent hours wordsmithing some text in a dialog that explains exactly what the problem is to people, then watched people blow through the dialog and get angry when they couldn't figure out what's wrong. I think it's important to understand what you're agreeing to in simple, plain terms that aren't a mile long. But the legal system is so tortured with tort cases that you can't have a simple agreement like that and be protected from lawsuits where people are just trying to make a buck off you.
TomSwirly 5y ago
> normal people really do not care at all because if they did they would not consent to it when purchasing an iPhone or Android. I think a lot of people care _but have no choice in the matter._

titzer 5y ago

> but normal people really do not care at all because if they did they would not consent to it when purchasing an iPhone or Android. These platforms literally do everything possible to obscure what you are actually agreeing to. Google, for instance, has lawyers sign off on privacy design docs that set the verbiage on dialogs that users agree to. The lawyers are there to make sure it is as vague and as broad possible while being up to a hair's breadth of what is legally defensible. Consumers are deliberately kept in the dark. One might say they are naive and trusting. But most would absolutely disapprove if they sat at the "God console" and saw other people's lives the way the vast towers of computing power and machine learning can. It's like a wireframe view of an ant farm, but with people.

CyberRabbi 5y ago
> But most would absolutely disapprove if they sat at the "God console" and saw other people's lives the way the vast towers of computing power and machine learning can. Sure maybe they would disapprove but they would probably still use their phones even after being horrified by the god console. The fact is that the average person is already aware their phone is spying on them without being told by the manufacturer yet they still use their phones. On a visceral level, the benefit of their phone far outweighs abstract privacy concerns. For example, a troubling amount of people were seriously paranoid about 5G somehow causing them harm. What percentage of that group do you think will continue to use their 5G phone? I would guess upward of 80%
- titzer 5y ago
  > What percentage of that group do you think will continue to use their 5G phone? I would guess upward of 80% I know. But people still smoke even after seeing pictures of cancer-ridden lungs. We're all little crack addicts.
  - CyberRabbi 5y ago
    > But people still smoke even after seeing pictures of cancer-ridden lungs. Great point all around. Similar to the smoking problem, I think if we want behavior around privacy to change it will require large amounts of funding and public campaigns. I think it’s unlikely there will be a grassroots effort.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  > On a visceral level, the benefit of their phone far outweighs abstract privacy concerns. True. Most have been fed the "if you have nothing to hide..." bullshit for too long, so they now think only criminals must have something to hide, which is nonsense, and paves the way to potentially horrific development if taken to the letter.
shaftway 5y ago
I get that it feels like that. I've been on the other side of these discussions and it's painful there too. I've spent hours wordsmithing some text in a dialog that explains exactly what the problem is to people, then watched people blow through the dialog and get angry when they couldn't figure out what's wrong. I think it's important to understand what you're agreeing to in simple, plain terms that aren't a mile long. But the legal system is so tortured with tort cases that you can't have a simple agreement like that and be protected from lawsuits where people are just trying to make a buck off you.

TomSwirly 5y ago

> normal people really do not care at all because if they did they would not consent to it when purchasing an iPhone or Android. I think a lot of people care _but have no choice in the matter._