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> I don't know why full stack webdevs are paid so poorly. No really, they should be paid like half a mil a year just base salary. Fuck they have to understand b

> I don't know why full stack webdevs are paid so poorly. No really, they should be paid like half a mil a year just base salary. Fuck they have to understand both front end AND back end AND how different browsers work AND networking AND databases AND caching AND differences between web and mobile AND omg what the fuck there's another framework out there that companies want to use? Seriously, why are webdevs paid so little. AMEN to this. I've been in the industry for 20+ years and at this point I know so many different frameworks (front-end and back-end), databases (SQL and NoSQL), networking protocols, browser differences, ORMs, it goes on and on. I'm paid what I barely consider adequate.

aszen 5y ago
I think people in the industry are paid based on the potential value they can create (whether real or not), knowing many things or understanding fancy technologies matters little if one can't put them to use for the benefit of the company.
- skizm 5y ago
  Value created plus how easy they are to replace (supply and demand).
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  Also, most companies like to brand themselves as ‘tech’ to signal that they are growth based. Why is Peloton a tech company? They’re not. A lot of us have jobs because companies need to fulfill the image. It’s half the reason why so many people are allowed to do full-stack when in reality they would have no business dealing with those parts of the stack in a real operation. So no, you don’t actually deserve more money because you are working on more things in an inconsequential space (e.g What the entire Peloton engineering team does is probably bullshit. You need maybe a few devs). There are certainly better examples than Peloton, but that’s what came to mind (a home gym tech (lol) company). Can’t wait until Bowflex starts hiring out web developers.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Peloton easily a tech company compared to Schwinn.
  - redisman 5y ago
    Isn't their core product some kind of a streaming service that you pay for monthly?
    - runawaybottle 5y ago
      I’m pretty sure it’s a treadmill.
- EMM_386 5y ago
  I've helped found multi-million dollar companies that I left before I could "cash out" because they were desktop based companies working with technology I considered growing stale and I wanted to switch to the web. Now I'm doing the same thing with another company with the web, expect I'm handling everything as a sole-engineer, full stack. Here I'm dealing with creating an Angular application to replace an aging ASP.Net MVC app, having to rewrite hundreds of SOAP services into a proper REST architecture, and dealing with an Oracle database who's schema we need to keep in place. With a C# .Net Core back-end. This company needs me, badly, but I doubt this is going to be come a cash cow either (no equity, just a paycheck, and their budget is tight). Just doing my job as usual.
  - aszen 5y ago
    It seems to like you are refactoring an existing application, I'm personally in the middle of something similar but rather than doing it solo, I'm trying to engage other Dev's, grab their interests by demoing the new architecture and see if I can get a few more hands on this work. I'm doing all of this extra work because I think the best way to create value for a company is to make it easy for other/new developers to jump in to the project and contribute something of value quickly. My refactoring would have failed completely if other Dev's are not able to contribute the new code
    - EMM_386 5y ago
      > It seems to like you are refactoring an existing application, I'm personally in the middle of something similar but rather than doing it solo, I'm trying to engage other Dev's, grab their interests by demoing the new architecture and see if I can get a few more hands on this work. The problem is they literally can't afford it. They looked at "near shoring" companies but they were too expensive. They said we got a quote for developers from another country who will do this work for $20/hour. I explained that this has the potential of ruining a green-field project that absolutely needs to be architected and coded properly from the ground-up. If we go that route the best I can do is enforce code standards and handle every pull-request.
      - 5y ago
futureproofd 5y ago
From my experience this is true because the team is so focused on getting the backend business logic sorted out, catering to new customer demands, that they develop new features overnight. Then just assume the front-end will consume it and output a little, inconsequential DOM element here or there.
otabdeveloper4 5y ago
> programming is webapps Uhm, sweety, just no.
Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
I see where you're coming from, I do all that too. But it's the "jack of all trades" thing. You "know" all that, but do you actually __know__ all that. I can develop a nice relational database design, write the SQL stored procedures to manipulate it, write a backend API and write the front end SPA for it. I don't think I'm an expert in any of those things though, and if I am then it's more focused on the backend API stuff. Like, I understand CSS better than most people, but I'm not a guru like some. I can write SQL for anything I need but I couldn't tell you anything about performance tuning my SQL outside of seeks vs scans and the size of a lock. Understanding the basics of these things isn't really a daunting task and that's why full stack devs aren't paid half a mil a year. But you have to accept at some point that if you're full stack then you're rarely going to be considered an expert in any field. That's not bad though having rounded knowledge is super good.
- whymauri 5y ago
  >You "know" all that, but do you actually __know__ all that. Companies that underpay fullstack web developers usually don't actually care if their engineers __know__ all that, either. They just want the cheapest, fastest, CRUD app they can demo and ship out ASAP. As a result, these employers fail to recognize (and reward!) the fullstack web developers who do actually __know__ the full stack. At my last job there was a rockstar web developer engineer who could easily double their compensation by moving to a larger company instead of a startup. My advocacy for them to get a raise or promotion was cast as 'the engineer is complaining again."
manigandham 5y ago
The issue is in actually using all that knowledge in a single position and creating enough value. Larger organizations have specialized teams that move faster at their function rather than generalized devs. The way for full-stack devs to profit most is to work at smaller companies and trade that for equity and seniority.

aszen 5y ago

I think people in the industry are paid based on the potential value they can create (whether real or not), knowing many things or understanding fancy technologies matters little if one can't put them to use for the benefit of the company.

skizm 5y ago
Value created plus how easy they are to replace (supply and demand).
runawaybottle 5y ago
Also, most companies like to brand themselves as ‘tech’ to signal that they are growth based. Why is Peloton a tech company? They’re not. A lot of us have jobs because companies need to fulfill the image. It’s half the reason why so many people are allowed to do full-stack when in reality they would have no business dealing with those parts of the stack in a real operation. So no, you don’t actually deserve more money because you are working on more things in an inconsequential space (e.g What the entire Peloton engineering team does is probably bullshit. You need maybe a few devs). There are certainly better examples than Peloton, but that’s what came to mind (a home gym tech (lol) company). Can’t wait until Bowflex starts hiring out web developers.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Peloton easily a tech company compared to Schwinn.
- redisman 5y ago
  Isn't their core product some kind of a streaming service that you pay for monthly?
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    I’m pretty sure it’s a treadmill.
EMM_386 5y ago
I've helped found multi-million dollar companies that I left before I could "cash out" because they were desktop based companies working with technology I considered growing stale and I wanted to switch to the web. Now I'm doing the same thing with another company with the web, expect I'm handling everything as a sole-engineer, full stack. Here I'm dealing with creating an Angular application to replace an aging ASP.Net MVC app, having to rewrite hundreds of SOAP services into a proper REST architecture, and dealing with an Oracle database who's schema we need to keep in place. With a C# .Net Core back-end. This company needs me, badly, but I doubt this is going to be come a cash cow either (no equity, just a paycheck, and their budget is tight). Just doing my job as usual.
- aszen 5y ago
  It seems to like you are refactoring an existing application, I'm personally in the middle of something similar but rather than doing it solo, I'm trying to engage other Dev's, grab their interests by demoing the new architecture and see if I can get a few more hands on this work. I'm doing all of this extra work because I think the best way to create value for a company is to make it easy for other/new developers to jump in to the project and contribute something of value quickly. My refactoring would have failed completely if other Dev's are not able to contribute the new code
  - EMM_386 5y ago
    > It seems to like you are refactoring an existing application, I'm personally in the middle of something similar but rather than doing it solo, I'm trying to engage other Dev's, grab their interests by demoing the new architecture and see if I can get a few more hands on this work. The problem is they literally can't afford it. They looked at "near shoring" companies but they were too expensive. They said we got a quote for developers from another country who will do this work for $20/hour. I explained that this has the potential of ruining a green-field project that absolutely needs to be architected and coded properly from the ground-up. If we go that route the best I can do is enforce code standards and handle every pull-request.
    - 5y ago

futureproofd 5y ago

From my experience this is true because the team is so focused on getting the backend business logic sorted out, catering to new customer demands, that they develop new features overnight. Then just assume the front-end will consume it and output a little, inconsequential DOM element here or there.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago

> programming is webapps Uhm, sweety, just no.

Philip-J-Fry 5y ago

I see where you're coming from, I do all that too. But it's the "jack of all trades" thing. You "know" all that, but do you actually __know__ all that. I can develop a nice relational database design, write the SQL stored procedures to manipulate it, write a backend API and write the front end SPA for it. I don't think I'm an expert in any of those things though, and if I am then it's more focused on the backend API stuff. Like, I understand CSS better than most people, but I'm not a guru like some. I can write SQL for anything I need but I couldn't tell you anything about performance tuning my SQL outside of seeks vs scans and the size of a lock. Understanding the basics of these things isn't really a daunting task and that's why full stack devs aren't paid half a mil a year. But you have to accept at some point that if you're full stack then you're rarely going to be considered an expert in any field. That's not bad though having rounded knowledge is super good.

whymauri 5y ago
>You "know" all that, but do you actually __know__ all that. Companies that underpay fullstack web developers usually don't actually care if their engineers __know__ all that, either. They just want the cheapest, fastest, CRUD app they can demo and ship out ASAP. As a result, these employers fail to recognize (and reward!) the fullstack web developers who do actually __know__ the full stack. At my last job there was a rockstar web developer engineer who could easily double their compensation by moving to a larger company instead of a startup. My advocacy for them to get a raise or promotion was cast as 'the engineer is complaining again."

manigandham 5y ago

The issue is in actually using all that knowledge in a single position and creating enough value. Larger organizations have specialized teams that move faster at their function rather than generalized devs. The way for full-stack devs to profit most is to work at smaller companies and trade that for equity and seniority.