8 ms·

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evi

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Sorry, honest question. Being from a different culture, I honestly fail to get this kind of outrage. For me it's just a description of humans being human...

h2odragon 5y ago
> a description of humans being human... Precisely. There's some sort of "if you have authority you must be better than me" feeling and "better than me" admits no flaws or human variety at all, apparently. Some folks want perfect Gods to follow and keep failing to make them from people made of meat.
- frickinLasers 5y ago
  It is difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings between two people, from the case of a superior using their position to get their genitals wet and a subordinate capitulating for fear of losing their job. Since feelings are only a biological impulse, and we humans frequently suppress our impulses in the form of self control, it's much easier to look for that oxytocin fix in a more appropriate arena. The military has been doing this for ages, forbidding officers from fraternizing with enlisted. And plenty of civilians abusing positions of power have proven the wisdom of such a policy.
  - Veen 5y ago
    It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere. It's a constant of human experience and has very little to do with power dynamics.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      >It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere. Huh?
      - frickinLasers 5y ago
        They're saying people are assholes. For instance, in some American cultures (see my previous comment for which culture), it's a given that perhaps 40-60% of married individuals are cheating on their spouse. That's not love--that's doing what feels good, and then doing someone else that feels good. Where there's a power imbalance, it's easier to ban a class of abuses than to figure out the small percentage of cases where both parties are genuinely afflicted by mutual biological imperatives.
        whatshisface 5y ago
        That's pretty easy to distinguish, I don't see any trouble at all in forming those categories.
        frickinLasers 5y ago
        Okay, I got a little off track. Let's say you're an HR person (or whoever is at legal risk if an employee decides they've been taken advantage of), and someone come in with just such a complaint. How would you, an outside party, determine whether the superior was really [infatuated, in love, whatever], and not simply taking advantage of their situation? Or how would a judge determine that? Is it worth it to the company to work through that process every time it happens? What about the people who really were victimized, but the evidence is circumstantial and the court says otherwise? Isn't it easier to exclude the small pool of people that are subordinates and tell the supervisor to find romance anywhere else?
skystarman 5y ago
FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry... He made a terribly misogynistic "joke" and paid the consequences for it. You'd think someone with a Nobel prize wouldn't be so clueless
- prepend 5y ago
  > FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry... Do you think women in the lab, when criticized, are more likely, less likely, or equally likely to cry? Is the scientist’s comment mean spirited, or sexist, or just an observation? I think it’s important to consider what the intent behind these jokes are. The Wikipedia article calls out statements from 29 other scientists that note how women (and men) were advanced within his lab and outside his lab. So if this person thinks that the women he’s worked with cry when criticized, so we not want him to say that? It seems more like the goal should be to not stigmatize crying as that seems pretty reasonable for all genders, rather than to stigmatize talking about crying.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    The rule is really simple: it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in. Period. All groups (even groups people feel proud to be a part of), and all generalizations, even ones that sound positive or don't apply to the listener. I'm not going to list examples but if you're having a hard time thinking of them just imagine overhearing a conversation at a coffee shop about "those <something you are>, they're always <something you do or don't do>."
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in. It does not make everyone uncomfortable, obviously. I thought we were not supposed to resort to stereotypes.
      - deleted 5y ago
pasabagi 5y ago
I guess for me the thing that's really crappy about this quote is that it shows his underlying attitude - that women are basically always potential romantic partners. If he was into men, and he said he didn't want men in the lab because he might fall in love with them, you can sort of see how absurd it is, and how unpleasant it is to be the object of romantic fantasy when you're just trying to get on with your job.
- rscho 5y ago
  > women are basically always potential romantic partners Ok, why would that not be the case? Laws? PC? Age difference? Love/biology doesn't care about social rules, and this has been shown time and again in every possible situation you could think of. > you can sort of see how absurd it is Huh, no I can't. What makes it different when you reverse the situation?
  - bumby 5y ago
    >Ok, why would that not be the case? Because of professionalism. The root of term used for “professions” like law, medicine, engineering etc. is that one professes to a code of ethics. That code should overrule base desires. We generally wouldn’t accept a doctor who views and treats patients primarily as an income stream despite greed being a near-universal human drive and we shouldn’t expect a professor to view subordinates as potential romantic partners. Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it.
    - rscho 5y ago
      > Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it. So, exactly what Hunt said in his speech.
      - bumby 5y ago
        Maybe you can help me understand the context better. From the GP post where he seems to advocate for separate male and female labs he seems to imply there isn’t enough professionalism present to have co-ed labs. I’m saying that claim is more an implication of the person saying it and their (lack of) professional ethics than an indictment of the subordinates. It’s very similar in my mind to the recent arguments about gender in military units
toss1 5y ago
“Human nature, is what we are put on earth to overcome.” --Katherine Hepburn, in The African Queen A few of the good words to live by
- iamadog3 5y ago
  Not really, no. Human nature is what we're dealt, we must embrace both the positive and negative aspects of it. Perhaps the inevitability of two people gravitating towards one another can be leveraged? Perhaps the disparities can elucidate us on unseen proclivities in different populations, things that can also be leveraged and positively. What we should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine. No longer can they be compelling or compelled but only impelled as would be a gear turning in the insurmountable forces of the engine that drives.
  - toss1 5y ago
    >>things that can also be leveraged and positively. And, exactly how is this NOT overcoming human nature? >> should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine What in that quote, or its context, ever suggested cramming people into functionary or mechanical roles?
- curtainsforus 5y ago
  Should you try to overcome your survival instinct?
  - toss1 5y ago
    Often, yes (though usually not to the point of actually dying). Overcoming survival fears is behind every act of physical courage, e.g., saving a friend or stranger, or exploring any new zone that will normally kill you (mountaineering, undersea, space, etc.). You have got to suppress your naive survival instinct (or remain massively ignorant) to climb on top of a rocket with thousands of tons of explosive material...
zozbot234 5y ago
The controversial part is where he suggests that this is a "problem" and might be a good reason to exclude women from working in the lab alongside with males. That looks like he's starting out with a very sexist attitude and trying to justify it with flimsy excuses.
- wrs 5y ago
  By framing that as “exclusion” are you assuming the women-only labs would be worse places to work than the men-only labs?
  - b3morales 5y ago
    As a policy it denies both women and men the opportunity of working together. If you are a man and a woman happens to be working on the same problem that you are investigating, would you like to be excluded from learning from her? And vice versa.
    - wrs 5y ago
      Exactly. So his proposal is not a practical solution to the problem of human behavior affecting productivity, but it’s not “sexist”. Many single-sex schools exist and have strong proponents, but are rarely described as “excluding” people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- anewhnaccount2 5y ago
  That part was the joke. He's saying it's a real problem, but that's clearly the wrong solution. For him, it's obviously a bad solution, and so worthy of ridicule.
b3morales 5y ago
It's painfully reductive and one-dimensional. What about envy and hate, hero worship, and other emotional attachments? Those have no effect on working environment? What about men and women who aren't romantically attracted to (respectively) women and men? Are gay men relegated to the women's lab? But only one per batch, lest they fall in love with each other? (And bisexual people can only be trusted to do science on their own.) In general don't we expect "professionalism" to include a level of managing your emotions? And this person is basically saying "I can't deal, therefore certain other people must be kept away so I don't get distracted". As well as tarring women in general as not being able to deal, which is unfair. I sure wouldn't want to work with this guy after hearing him say that.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Feelings of love are notoriously hard to "manage". This is the plot line of most Rom-Coms for instance.
  - b3morales 5y ago
    Romantic comedies are fiction, though, intentionally exaggerated for entertainment. I don't deny there's a kernel of truth to that kind of story -- or else they wouldn't be interesting at all -- but I hope we're not taking them as a model of workplace behavior.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      Right but my point is that love is something you fall into, not a conscious choice (as opposed to making inappropriate comments or non-consensually touching a colleague where you shouldnt. These are things professionals are reasonably expected to manage in the workplace)
      - newswasboring 5y ago
        Yeah but only women cry when they are criticized, right? Why is everyone glossing over the blatant sexism and discussing something else entirely?
timoth3y 5y ago
> So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Fundamentally, he is saying that since he has trouble keeping his emotions in check around women, the solution is to not allow women in the lab rather than developing his own managerial or social skills. It's understandable why some would question the wisdom of having this person responsible for developing the skills of female scientists. Should he have been fired? I don't know. Certainly not if tis joke was is only "offence", but I suspect there is a bit more history to the situation.
newswasboring 5y ago
> and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Hard to not assume malice when you accuse someone for implying something they explicitly said they don't want to imply.

h2odragon 5y ago

> a description of humans being human... Precisely. There's some sort of "if you have authority you must be better than me" feeling and "better than me" admits no flaws or human variety at all, apparently. Some folks want perfect Gods to follow and keep failing to make them from people made of meat.

frickinLasers 5y ago
It is difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings between two people, from the case of a superior using their position to get their genitals wet and a subordinate capitulating for fear of losing their job. Since feelings are only a biological impulse, and we humans frequently suppress our impulses in the form of self control, it's much easier to look for that oxytocin fix in a more appropriate arena. The military has been doing this for ages, forbidding officers from fraternizing with enlisted. And plenty of civilians abusing positions of power have proven the wisdom of such a policy.
- Veen 5y ago
  It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere. It's a constant of human experience and has very little to do with power dynamics.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    >It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere. Huh?
    - frickinLasers 5y ago
      They're saying people are assholes. For instance, in some American cultures (see my previous comment for which culture), it's a given that perhaps 40-60% of married individuals are cheating on their spouse. That's not love--that's doing what feels good, and then doing someone else that feels good. Where there's a power imbalance, it's easier to ban a class of abuses than to figure out the small percentage of cases where both parties are genuinely afflicted by mutual biological imperatives.
      - whatshisface 5y ago
        That's pretty easy to distinguish, I don't see any trouble at all in forming those categories.
        frickinLasers 5y ago
        Okay, I got a little off track. Let's say you're an HR person (or whoever is at legal risk if an employee decides they've been taken advantage of), and someone come in with just such a complaint. How would you, an outside party, determine whether the superior was really [infatuated, in love, whatever], and not simply taking advantage of their situation? Or how would a judge determine that? Is it worth it to the company to work through that process every time it happens? What about the people who really were victimized, but the evidence is circumstantial and the court says otherwise? Isn't it easier to exclude the small pool of people that are subordinates and tell the supervisor to find romance anywhere else?

skystarman 5y ago

FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry... He made a terribly misogynistic "joke" and paid the consequences for it. You'd think someone with a Nobel prize wouldn't be so clueless

prepend 5y ago
> FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry... Do you think women in the lab, when criticized, are more likely, less likely, or equally likely to cry? Is the scientist’s comment mean spirited, or sexist, or just an observation? I think it’s important to consider what the intent behind these jokes are. The Wikipedia article calls out statements from 29 other scientists that note how women (and men) were advanced within his lab and outside his lab. So if this person thinks that the women he’s worked with cry when criticized, so we not want him to say that? It seems more like the goal should be to not stigmatize crying as that seems pretty reasonable for all genders, rather than to stigmatize talking about crying.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  The rule is really simple: it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in. Period. All groups (even groups people feel proud to be a part of), and all generalizations, even ones that sound positive or don't apply to the listener. I'm not going to list examples but if you're having a hard time thinking of them just imagine overhearing a conversation at a coffee shop about "those <something you are>, they're always <something you do or don't do>."
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in. It does not make everyone uncomfortable, obviously. I thought we were not supposed to resort to stereotypes.
    - deleted 5y ago

pasabagi 5y ago

I guess for me the thing that's really crappy about this quote is that it shows his underlying attitude - that women are basically always potential romantic partners. If he was into men, and he said he didn't want men in the lab because he might fall in love with them, you can sort of see how absurd it is, and how unpleasant it is to be the object of romantic fantasy when you're just trying to get on with your job.

rscho 5y ago
> women are basically always potential romantic partners Ok, why would that not be the case? Laws? PC? Age difference? Love/biology doesn't care about social rules, and this has been shown time and again in every possible situation you could think of. > you can sort of see how absurd it is Huh, no I can't. What makes it different when you reverse the situation?
- bumby 5y ago
  >Ok, why would that not be the case? Because of professionalism. The root of term used for “professions” like law, medicine, engineering etc. is that one professes to a code of ethics. That code should overrule base desires. We generally wouldn’t accept a doctor who views and treats patients primarily as an income stream despite greed being a near-universal human drive and we shouldn’t expect a professor to view subordinates as potential romantic partners. Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it.
  - rscho 5y ago
    > Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it. So, exactly what Hunt said in his speech.
    - bumby 5y ago
      Maybe you can help me understand the context better. From the GP post where he seems to advocate for separate male and female labs he seems to imply there isn’t enough professionalism present to have co-ed labs. I’m saying that claim is more an implication of the person saying it and their (lack of) professional ethics than an indictment of the subordinates. It’s very similar in my mind to the recent arguments about gender in military units

toss1 5y ago

“Human nature, is what we are put on earth to overcome.” --Katherine Hepburn, in The African Queen A few of the good words to live by

iamadog3 5y ago
Not really, no. Human nature is what we're dealt, we must embrace both the positive and negative aspects of it. Perhaps the inevitability of two people gravitating towards one another can be leveraged? Perhaps the disparities can elucidate us on unseen proclivities in different populations, things that can also be leveraged and positively. What we should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine. No longer can they be compelling or compelled but only impelled as would be a gear turning in the insurmountable forces of the engine that drives.
- toss1 5y ago
  >>things that can also be leveraged and positively. And, exactly how is this NOT overcoming human nature? >> should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine What in that quote, or its context, ever suggested cramming people into functionary or mechanical roles?
curtainsforus 5y ago
Should you try to overcome your survival instinct?
- toss1 5y ago
  Often, yes (though usually not to the point of actually dying). Overcoming survival fears is behind every act of physical courage, e.g., saving a friend or stranger, or exploring any new zone that will normally kill you (mountaineering, undersea, space, etc.). You have got to suppress your naive survival instinct (or remain massively ignorant) to climb on top of a rocket with thousands of tons of explosive material...

zozbot234 5y ago

The controversial part is where he suggests that this is a "problem" and might be a good reason to exclude women from working in the lab alongside with males. That looks like he's starting out with a very sexist attitude and trying to justify it with flimsy excuses.

wrs 5y ago
By framing that as “exclusion” are you assuming the women-only labs would be worse places to work than the men-only labs?
- b3morales 5y ago
  As a policy it denies both women and men the opportunity of working together. If you are a man and a woman happens to be working on the same problem that you are investigating, would you like to be excluded from learning from her? And vice versa.
  - wrs 5y ago
    Exactly. So his proposal is not a practical solution to the problem of human behavior affecting productivity, but it’s not “sexist”. Many single-sex schools exist and have strong proponents, but are rarely described as “excluding” people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
anewhnaccount2 5y ago
That part was the joke. He's saying it's a real problem, but that's clearly the wrong solution. For him, it's obviously a bad solution, and so worthy of ridicule.

b3morales 5y ago

It's painfully reductive and one-dimensional. What about envy and hate, hero worship, and other emotional attachments? Those have no effect on working environment? What about men and women who aren't romantically attracted to (respectively) women and men? Are gay men relegated to the women's lab? But only one per batch, lest they fall in love with each other? (And bisexual people can only be trusted to do science on their own.) In general don't we expect "professionalism" to include a level of managing your emotions? And this person is basically saying "I can't deal, therefore certain other people must be kept away so I don't get distracted". As well as tarring women in general as not being able to deal, which is unfair. I sure wouldn't want to work with this guy after hearing him say that.

missedthecue 5y ago
Feelings of love are notoriously hard to "manage". This is the plot line of most Rom-Coms for instance.
- b3morales 5y ago
  Romantic comedies are fiction, though, intentionally exaggerated for entertainment. I don't deny there's a kernel of truth to that kind of story -- or else they wouldn't be interesting at all -- but I hope we're not taking them as a model of workplace behavior.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Right but my point is that love is something you fall into, not a conscious choice (as opposed to making inappropriate comments or non-consensually touching a colleague where you shouldnt. These are things professionals are reasonably expected to manage in the workplace)
    - newswasboring 5y ago
      Yeah but only women cry when they are criticized, right? Why is everyone glossing over the blatant sexism and discussing something else entirely?

timoth3y 5y ago

> So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Fundamentally, he is saying that since he has trouble keeping his emotions in check around women, the solution is to not allow women in the lab rather than developing his own managerial or social skills. It's understandable why some would question the wisdom of having this person responsible for developing the skills of female scientists. Should he have been fired? I don't know. Certainly not if tis joke was is only "offence", but I suspect there is a bit more history to the situation.

newswasboring 5y ago

> and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Hard to not assume malice when you accuse someone for implying something they explicitly said they don't want to imply.