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the rich expect price of goods and services from poorer countries to be lower than in their own country. This is standard, not just in IT, but also in clothes,

the rich expect price of goods and services from poorer countries to be lower than in their own country. This is standard, not just in IT, but also in clothes, manufacturing, etc. It's capitalism at its finest.

busterarm 5y ago
> This is standard... That's what people tell themselves to justify their exploitation. I am in the business of providing value. That's what you pay me for and it's commensurate with the amount of value that I can provide. Your recruiting costs also don't get any cheaper just because I'm not in the same location as you. If you're just looking at a calculation of how many asses can you get into seats for as low an amount of money possible, sure, but I guarantee that makes you a shitty company to work for. Also getting quality output out of a globally distributed team isn't exactly cost-free either. People really need to stop thinking like employees and more like they're in business for themselves. I shop out work to artists/artisans all over the world and I can assure you that the illustrators I've contracted in the Philippines and metalworkers I've contracted in China all charge high (normal for US) rates when their work is good. And I'm happy to send them repeat business.
- ams92 5y ago
  Thirty dollars per hour is a really good wage in a lot of countries where the cost of living is much lower. Nobody is making OP work for the company that they’re interviewing for. Also, would we be complaining if the company opened up an office in the OP’s home country and offered the same wage? There are companies that are location agnostic as well when it comes to salary which the OP could be interviewing for.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Everything you say is true but provides no actual tactic to get the employer to offer a higher pay. > I am in the business of providing value. That's what you pay me for and it's commensurate with the amount of value that I can provide. "I can get the same value as you provide from someone else in your city/country for cheaper than you ask for." When you go shop for products, will you pay more for a product made in an expensive country despite it having no advantage over the one made in a cheap country? (Assuming no sweat shops, etc are involved).
  - busterarm 5y ago
    The services are not of equivalent value. And while I'm not saying you can't have a distributed remote team, the approach of outsourcing software labour to cheaper markets has repeatedly demonstrated that it does not work. Unfortunately, few people in this field have the career longevity and experience to have seen this play out. Remote work works when you've expanded your talent pool to get _better_ talent. And while it can help you stretch your budget, if you're at the point where you're lowballing the foreign talent that you're already getting at a 50% haircut on a newly-minted local developer, you're fucking doing it wrong.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      > And while I'm not saying you can't have a distributed remote team, the approach of outsourcing software labour to cheaper markets has repeatedly demonstrated that it does not work. If your goal is primarily to cut costs, yes. If your goal is to hire good engineers and you want to access a global market, the data likely shows the opposite. 2 jobs ago, we had teams in 4 different countries. The top performing team was in a 3rd world country. The US based team (which was the "home" team) was 3rd in terms of performance. All teams worked 40 hours a week or so. When you can pay above market wages in a cheaper country, you can get pretty good talent. They couldn't afford to pay above market in the US, and frankly, it didn't matter. Most jobs will not benefit from having everyone be outstanding. This wasn't a startup or a FAANG level position. Hiring people in a poorer country was a win-win. Even if we start going to FAANG companies, they have teams in other countries. I guarantee they are paying them less than what they pay in the Bay area. And I'm pretty sure that "it does work" for them.
drstewart 5y ago
>the rich expect price of goods and services from poorer countries to be lower than in their own country So the poor expect what? Can you tell me what you think a poor person from West Virginia expects the cost of goods and services in Mexico to be?
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Sounds like you have an interesting point but it might be too subtle for me. Can you rephrase? I take it that the “poor person” benefits from cheap imports as a consumer but might at the same time they might be poor because they can’t get a job, because so much industry had been outsourced to other countries. I have spoken to homeless people and cost of housing seems to be the big factor not cost of cotton pants or food. Cost of housing is not really related to imports.

busterarm 5y ago

> This is standard... That's what people tell themselves to justify their exploitation. I am in the business of providing value. That's what you pay me for and it's commensurate with the amount of value that I can provide. Your recruiting costs also don't get any cheaper just because I'm not in the same location as you. If you're just looking at a calculation of how many asses can you get into seats for as low an amount of money possible, sure, but I guarantee that makes you a shitty company to work for. Also getting quality output out of a globally distributed team isn't exactly cost-free either. People really need to stop thinking like employees and more like they're in business for themselves. I shop out work to artists/artisans all over the world and I can assure you that the illustrators I've contracted in the Philippines and metalworkers I've contracted in China all charge high (normal for US) rates when their work is good. And I'm happy to send them repeat business.

ams92 5y ago
Thirty dollars per hour is a really good wage in a lot of countries where the cost of living is much lower. Nobody is making OP work for the company that they’re interviewing for. Also, would we be complaining if the company opened up an office in the OP’s home country and offered the same wage? There are companies that are location agnostic as well when it comes to salary which the OP could be interviewing for.
BeetleB 5y ago
Everything you say is true but provides no actual tactic to get the employer to offer a higher pay. > I am in the business of providing value. That's what you pay me for and it's commensurate with the amount of value that I can provide. "I can get the same value as you provide from someone else in your city/country for cheaper than you ask for." When you go shop for products, will you pay more for a product made in an expensive country despite it having no advantage over the one made in a cheap country? (Assuming no sweat shops, etc are involved).
- busterarm 5y ago
  The services are not of equivalent value. And while I'm not saying you can't have a distributed remote team, the approach of outsourcing software labour to cheaper markets has repeatedly demonstrated that it does not work. Unfortunately, few people in this field have the career longevity and experience to have seen this play out. Remote work works when you've expanded your talent pool to get _better_ talent. And while it can help you stretch your budget, if you're at the point where you're lowballing the foreign talent that you're already getting at a 50% haircut on a newly-minted local developer, you're fucking doing it wrong.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > And while I'm not saying you can't have a distributed remote team, the approach of outsourcing software labour to cheaper markets has repeatedly demonstrated that it does not work. If your goal is primarily to cut costs, yes. If your goal is to hire good engineers and you want to access a global market, the data likely shows the opposite. 2 jobs ago, we had teams in 4 different countries. The top performing team was in a 3rd world country. The US based team (which was the "home" team) was 3rd in terms of performance. All teams worked 40 hours a week or so. When you can pay above market wages in a cheaper country, you can get pretty good talent. They couldn't afford to pay above market in the US, and frankly, it didn't matter. Most jobs will not benefit from having everyone be outstanding. This wasn't a startup or a FAANG level position. Hiring people in a poorer country was a win-win. Even if we start going to FAANG companies, they have teams in other countries. I guarantee they are paying them less than what they pay in the Bay area. And I'm pretty sure that "it does work" for them.

drstewart 5y ago

>the rich expect price of goods and services from poorer countries to be lower than in their own country So the poor expect what? Can you tell me what you think a poor person from West Virginia expects the cost of goods and services in Mexico to be?

quickthrower2 5y ago
Sounds like you have an interesting point but it might be too subtle for me. Can you rephrase? I take it that the “poor person” benefits from cheap imports as a consumer but might at the same time they might be poor because they can’t get a job, because so much industry had been outsourced to other countries. I have spoken to homeless people and cost of housing seems to be the big factor not cost of cotton pants or food. Cost of housing is not really related to imports.