6 ms·

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you expla

by kaydub 5y ago

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" is similar to the "How am I supposed to do this?" kind of open ended question the author uses as an example. Happy you posted this, feel like an idiot that I've never thought of using that exact phrase lol.

Buttons840 5y ago
Another question might be something like: I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. How much value do you expect I can bring to the company? Or maybe the more open ended question is better? I do like Never Split the Difference, great book. The most common complaint against it is that the author is a bit arrogant, but having read a couple other negotiation books first, I found the author's approach more fair and "real" than the bag-of-manipulative-tricks I found in the other books. Also, since it's the CTO your talking to, try to establish an (for lack of a better term) "tech people versus the rest of the world" mentality, then he will be more likely to side with you. As we've all seen, people side with their own perceived group. I don't mean this to be as aggressive as it sounds, just try to use the natural camaraderie between tech workers.
- rubicon33 5y ago
  > I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. This is the most awkward thing you could say.
  - ErrantX 5y ago
    And unless you are doing something very specifically tied to revenue generation (so, sales basically) impossible to answer sensibly. Like, what value does an SRE engineer bring? Or a cyber person? For a large company; basically nothing on average, until you save them from a major incident, then potentially loads.
- simonh 5y ago
  >...I know you need to pay me less than the value I create... How much value do you expect I can bring to the company? I would never use this sort of phrasing, that sound really painful. Have you ever actually used that in a negotiation? Rather I'd highlight my experience in achieving results at reduced cost, identifying efficiencies, and developing new sources of revenue to highlight my own ability to bring extra value. You're the one asking for more, so you need to justify it.
  - kqr 5y ago
    I'm not the person you're asking, but I tried a question very similar to that once. It -- the question -- did not have the intended effect. The negotiation itself left all parties happy though, so what do I know?
    - Buttons840 5y ago
      It seems most think it would be awkward, so it probably would be. I'd like to hear more about how it went for you. It seems like one of the ultra logical views which people find weird (or offensive) when spoken out loud. I mean, the principle here is clearly true, both the employee and employer must profit, if this condition doesn't exist the company soon dies.
      - kqr 5y ago
        It wasn't that it was awkward, it was just very hard to reason from the number that corresponds to future profits in a complicated way down to current compensation in a principled way.
llaolleh 5y ago
Never Split the Difference is a great book.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Terrible book that has some gems. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21769264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21769264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19059590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19059590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309966
  - leetrout 5y ago
    Gems?
  - openandshut 5y ago
    I see you recommended a few books and also said that 'a good book on negotiations will differentiate between strategies where the relationship is important and where it isn't'. What is one such book? I'm new to negotiations, having been avoidant my whole life. I've started with GTY and Chris Voss's masterclass, but I know there's more out there. Someone here on HN mentioned once that 'salience models' are the now the cutting edge of negotiation theory, but I haven't been able to find much useful beginner/intermediate stuff on that.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      > 'a good book on negotiations will differentiate between strategies where the relationship is important and where it isn't'. What is one such book? Bargaining for Advantage does this. I expect most "academic" books do it.
  - llaolleh 5y ago
    A lot of these comments are not fond of the author's arrogance... Which seems to be a little nitpicky. The techniques won't work if you use them verbatim because someone else who has read the book will recognize it. He simplifies things to a set of rules, but it's up to you to be judicious on when to use them and to do your homework on what the underlying principles are.
BeetleB 5y ago
> Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" While the general advice of open ended questions is sound, this question rarely works with companies. They'll simply respond with a vague answer. "We did market research and determined that this is a competitive rate for your skills." You have to counter that showing actual market data that disagrees with them. I'm a but surprised no one mentioned the other "trick" in NSTD: Politely insist on a fringe benefit that they cannot provide (e.g. N weeks of vacation). This will make them more likely to increase the compensation to counter the benefit they cannot give you.
- kqr 5y ago
  Sure, the follow-up to "how did you get to this number?" is -- whether or not they actually reply in detail -- always "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?"
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > whether or not they actually reply in detail In my experience, they never do (if they're a decent sized company). > "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?" This does work at times to increase your pay, so I recommend it. However, when it doesn't, they are not going to respond to your question. It will be another "We're sorry, but our data suggests otherwise. We aim to be competitive." Of course, if you're a very senior position and they really want to, they will have a conversation. In the remaining 99% of cases, they'll adjust the salary to an extent, and then you'll hit a wall. That's when you start negotiating on non-salary stuff.
    - kqr 5y ago
      "I appreciate that you're trying to be competitive, and it is a generous offer you have presented. The problem we have is, as you know, that I had pictured something different from a company with your resources. I have shared with you how I arrived at that. If you're not willing to share your process, how can I trust you have my best interest in mind?" Any good negotiator on the other side of the table would eventually throw you a bone if you are nice, don't relent, ask for reasonable things (if I sign up for you to own the fruits of my labour, I want to know I'm being cared for), and apply the right amounts of awkward silence.

by kaydub 5y ago

Buttons840 5y ago

Another question might be something like: I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. How much value do you expect I can bring to the company? Or maybe the more open ended question is better? I do like Never Split the Difference, great book. The most common complaint against it is that the author is a bit arrogant, but having read a couple other negotiation books first, I found the author's approach more fair and "real" than the bag-of-manipulative-tricks I found in the other books. Also, since it's the CTO your talking to, try to establish an (for lack of a better term) "tech people versus the rest of the world" mentality, then he will be more likely to side with you. As we've all seen, people side with their own perceived group. I don't mean this to be as aggressive as it sounds, just try to use the natural camaraderie between tech workers.

rubicon33 5y ago
> I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. This is the most awkward thing you could say.
- ErrantX 5y ago
  And unless you are doing something very specifically tied to revenue generation (so, sales basically) impossible to answer sensibly. Like, what value does an SRE engineer bring? Or a cyber person? For a large company; basically nothing on average, until you save them from a major incident, then potentially loads.
simonh 5y ago
>...I know you need to pay me less than the value I create... How much value do you expect I can bring to the company? I would never use this sort of phrasing, that sound really painful. Have you ever actually used that in a negotiation? Rather I'd highlight my experience in achieving results at reduced cost, identifying efficiencies, and developing new sources of revenue to highlight my own ability to bring extra value. You're the one asking for more, so you need to justify it.
- kqr 5y ago
  I'm not the person you're asking, but I tried a question very similar to that once. It -- the question -- did not have the intended effect. The negotiation itself left all parties happy though, so what do I know?
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    It seems most think it would be awkward, so it probably would be. I'd like to hear more about how it went for you. It seems like one of the ultra logical views which people find weird (or offensive) when spoken out loud. I mean, the principle here is clearly true, both the employee and employer must profit, if this condition doesn't exist the company soon dies.
    - kqr 5y ago
      It wasn't that it was awkward, it was just very hard to reason from the number that corresponds to future profits in a complicated way down to current compensation in a principled way.

llaolleh 5y ago

Never Split the Difference is a great book.

BeetleB 5y ago
Terrible book that has some gems. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21769264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21769264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19059590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19059590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309966
- leetrout 5y ago
  Gems?
- openandshut 5y ago
  I see you recommended a few books and also said that 'a good book on negotiations will differentiate between strategies where the relationship is important and where it isn't'. What is one such book? I'm new to negotiations, having been avoidant my whole life. I've started with GTY and Chris Voss's masterclass, but I know there's more out there. Someone here on HN mentioned once that 'salience models' are the now the cutting edge of negotiation theory, but I haven't been able to find much useful beginner/intermediate stuff on that.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > 'a good book on negotiations will differentiate between strategies where the relationship is important and where it isn't'. What is one such book? Bargaining for Advantage does this. I expect most "academic" books do it.
- llaolleh 5y ago
  A lot of these comments are not fond of the author's arrogance... Which seems to be a little nitpicky. The techniques won't work if you use them verbatim because someone else who has read the book will recognize it. He simplifies things to a set of rules, but it's up to you to be judicious on when to use them and to do your homework on what the underlying principles are.

BeetleB 5y ago

> Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" While the general advice of open ended questions is sound, this question rarely works with companies. They'll simply respond with a vague answer. "We did market research and determined that this is a competitive rate for your skills." You have to counter that showing actual market data that disagrees with them. I'm a but surprised no one mentioned the other "trick" in NSTD: Politely insist on a fringe benefit that they cannot provide (e.g. N weeks of vacation). This will make them more likely to increase the compensation to counter the benefit they cannot give you.

kqr 5y ago
Sure, the follow-up to "how did you get to this number?" is -- whether or not they actually reply in detail -- always "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?"
- BeetleB 5y ago
  > whether or not they actually reply in detail In my experience, they never do (if they're a decent sized company). > "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?" This does work at times to increase your pay, so I recommend it. However, when it doesn't, they are not going to respond to your question. It will be another "We're sorry, but our data suggests otherwise. We aim to be competitive." Of course, if you're a very senior position and they really want to, they will have a conversation. In the remaining 99% of cases, they'll adjust the salary to an extent, and then you'll hit a wall. That's when you start negotiating on non-salary stuff.
  - kqr 5y ago
    "I appreciate that you're trying to be competitive, and it is a generous offer you have presented. The problem we have is, as you know, that I had pictured something different from a company with your resources. I have shared with you how I arrived at that. If you're not willing to share your process, how can I trust you have my best interest in mind?" Any good negotiator on the other side of the table would eventually throw you a bone if you are nice, don't relent, ask for reasonable things (if I sign up for you to own the fruits of my labour, I want to know I'm being cared for), and apply the right amounts of awkward silence.