4 ms·

> where "you" stop and the rest of the universe (including other people) begins If you bother to delve into this idea you will see that there is no real bounda

by collyw 5y ago

> where "you" stop and the rest of the universe (including other people) begins If you bother to delve into this idea you will see that there is no real boundary. Is the oxygen I breathe in part of "me"? If it gets used in a metabolic process, I would say yes. If it gets breathed straight out again less so. Are my gut bacteria part of me or not? There is more and more research that implies that they have an important effect of my well-being.

lisper 5y ago
First, we're talking here about mental boundaries, not physical ones. Second, I used to believe that there is no real boundary, but upon reflection realized that this is completely wrong. Not only is there a physical boundary, this boundary is essential because living systems must distinguish between themselves and the things in the universe that are potentially available to be used as resources to stay alive. In fact, there are multiple physical boundaries in living systems at various levels of hierarchy, starting with the defining characteristic of most life on earth (by number of species, not total number of individuals or percentage of biomass) which is that it is eukaryotic and so has a boundary around the cell nucleus. Then there are cell walls, the segregation of cells into organs, and finally, your skin, which delineates a physical boundary around you. Yes, some of these boundaries are a little bit fuzzy. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
- Isinlor 5y ago
  The notion of boundary is just not helpful in explaining some phenomena. A virus RNA in nucleus of neurons in your brain is part of you or not? Is that alive or not? Conscious or not? The same way as an idea of a point particle breaks down in quantum physics, the idea of binary "you" and "not you" breaks down due to nature of reality.
  - lisper 5y ago
    > A virus RNA in nucleus of neurons in your brain is part of you or not? Depends on the virus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus > Is that lump of physical matter conscious or not? Depends on the lump. The only lump of physical matter that I know with 100% certainty is conscious is me. But my consciousness produces behavior in me that is similar to behavior I observe in other lumps of physical matter. Furthermore, there's a lot of evidence that my consciousness is somehow bound to a particular physical structure, namely, my brain. So it seems reasonable to suppose that other lumps of physical matter that have brains and exhibit the kinds of behavior that I associate with my own consciousness also possess consciousness, and that lumps of physical matter that lack these things don't.
    - Isinlor 5y ago
      So, how does it depend on the virus? When it is when it is not?
      - lisper 5y ago
        Because some viruses are ERVs and some are not. Those that are are "part of me" and those that aren't aren't. (Isn't that obvious?)
        collyw 5y ago
        So it becomes part of you by integrating into your DNA? It's only going to be a fraction of your cells that contain that DNA. I don't see how that makes it any more you than a virus that doesn't integrate. Herpes stays in your system for life, and doesn't incorporate into DNA.
        lisper 5y ago
        > It's only going to be a fraction of your cells that contain that DNA. No. ERVs are part of your genome.
        collyw 5y ago
        OK, that's an interesting case that I didn't know about, but it just shows how blurred the lines between genes, virus and transposons are. This is a virus that you can pass on to your children, but not others around you, correct? It's not what I was considering when taking about viruses, because of the infectious element. You have shifted my mental boundary about what is considered a virus. It looks like think something that is part of your genome is part of "you" - I won't argue that it isn't, it certainly is from one point of view. I don't plan to have children, so I have a different perspective on things.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by collyw 5y ago

lisper 5y ago

First, we're talking here about mental boundaries, not physical ones. Second, I used to believe that there is no real boundary, but upon reflection realized that this is completely wrong. Not only is there a physical boundary, this boundary is essential because living systems must distinguish between themselves and the things in the universe that are potentially available to be used as resources to stay alive. In fact, there are multiple physical boundaries in living systems at various levels of hierarchy, starting with the defining characteristic of most life on earth (by number of species, not total number of individuals or percentage of biomass) which is that it is eukaryotic and so has a boundary around the cell nucleus. Then there are cell walls, the segregation of cells into organs, and finally, your skin, which delineates a physical boundary around you. Yes, some of these boundaries are a little bit fuzzy. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Isinlor 5y ago
The notion of boundary is just not helpful in explaining some phenomena. A virus RNA in nucleus of neurons in your brain is part of you or not? Is that alive or not? Conscious or not? The same way as an idea of a point particle breaks down in quantum physics, the idea of binary "you" and "not you" breaks down due to nature of reality.
- lisper 5y ago
  > A virus RNA in nucleus of neurons in your brain is part of you or not? Depends on the virus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus > Is that lump of physical matter conscious or not? Depends on the lump. The only lump of physical matter that I know with 100% certainty is conscious is me. But my consciousness produces behavior in me that is similar to behavior I observe in other lumps of physical matter. Furthermore, there's a lot of evidence that my consciousness is somehow bound to a particular physical structure, namely, my brain. So it seems reasonable to suppose that other lumps of physical matter that have brains and exhibit the kinds of behavior that I associate with my own consciousness also possess consciousness, and that lumps of physical matter that lack these things don't.
  - Isinlor 5y ago
    So, how does it depend on the virus? When it is when it is not?
    - lisper 5y ago
      Because some viruses are ERVs and some are not. Those that are are "part of me" and those that aren't aren't. (Isn't that obvious?)
      - collyw 5y ago
        So it becomes part of you by integrating into your DNA? It's only going to be a fraction of your cells that contain that DNA. I don't see how that makes it any more you than a virus that doesn't integrate. Herpes stays in your system for life, and doesn't incorporate into DNA.
        lisper 5y ago
        > It's only going to be a fraction of your cells that contain that DNA. No. ERVs are part of your genome.
        collyw 5y ago
        OK, that's an interesting case that I didn't know about, but it just shows how blurred the lines between genes, virus and transposons are. This is a virus that you can pass on to your children, but not others around you, correct? It's not what I was considering when taking about viruses, because of the infectious element. You have shifted my mental boundary about what is considered a virus. It looks like think something that is part of your genome is part of "you" - I won't argue that it isn't, it certainly is from one point of view. I don't plan to have children, so I have a different perspective on things.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]