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It's technically not even a science. It's in the realm of logic and maths. After all we don't call algebra a science, why does computing all of sudden need the

It's technically not even a science. It's in the realm of logic and maths. After all we don't call algebra a science, why does computing all of sudden need the word? So to some it all up: computer science is neither about computers nor is it a science.

teleforce 5y ago
This reminds me of Holy Roman Empire, it's neither Holy nor Roman nor it's an Empire.
- reifyx 5y ago
  There's this old picture from a 1986 MIT lecture: https://miro.medium.com/max/4448/1*-yaqXNO1tUwVkUpyOqTT7Q@2x.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/4448/1*-yaqXNO1tUwVkUpyOqTT7Q@2x....
  - db48x 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&t=15s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&t=15s
    - neonological 5y ago
      Good find. My post is voted down, but this authoritative source is literally saying the same exact thing.
- scollet 5y ago
  Defining a thing by what it's not. Now that is a science unto itself.
adrusi 5y ago
It's true that for some time now "science" has been used almost exclusively for disciplines that make use of experimental methodologies, but in earlier usage it just meant roughly "the process of creating knowledge." The German "Wissenschaft" (which is normally how "science" is translated) is closer to the older meaning (though I'm not fluent in German, so I'm just going off what I've been told).
- neonological 5y ago
  But the inconsistency still exists regardless of the historical etymology. Math is not a science. A mathematician is Not a scientist. Why is computing a science?
  - User23 5y ago
    Logic, Ethics, and Aesthetics are the three normative sciences. Mathematics falls comfortably within the domain of logic, and thus mathematics is a scientific enterprise. Computing science is the subset of the subset that deals with getting actual computable results.
    - neonological 5y ago
      Did you just group Logic and aesthetics together into one thing? Beauty and ethics are subjective. Logic is not. Either way following this definition of "normative science" neither logic nor computer science nor math goes under it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_science The reason is because this definition mentions the notion of preferred outcome. Logic and Math and computer science do not deal with "preferred outcomes" these fields are all just axioms and the consequences resulting from said axioms preferred or not. Pedantry aside, nobody considers a "mathematician" to be a "scientist" when using the terms as they are commonly used in English. This is a total inconsistency.
      - User23 5y ago
        I’m using Peirce’s definition of the normative sciences[1]. As is not uncommon in English, the same words or phrases can denote different concepts and the wiki link you shared is a case in point. [1] https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce
        neonological 5y ago
        Feels arbitrary. You don't group oil painting with mechanical engineering why group Math with Beauty? This isko organization... if they do indeed follow pierce is incredibly strange. Case in point: https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce1.jpg https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce1.jpg Philosophy is under mathematics which is not under logic? Philosophy is like literature it is entirely a separate category and logic isn't even mentioned in his arbitrary grouping.
userbinator 5y ago
I suppose if we call it computer science, then perhaps all the other forms of science should really be called "reverse engineering" (especially biology.)
- neonological 5y ago
  Biology is consistent with science in the sense that there exists people called scientists in biology that do experiments utilizing the scientific method. In math everything is purely theoretical conjecture. No hypothesizes, no testing, no observation, just derivations of theorems from axioms. Same with "Computer Science" it's all logic games. That's why mathematicians are not known as scientists. For computing, I believe the term "computer science" was likely mistakenly coined by someone who didn't know the full extent of the word "science."
  - huachimingo 5y ago
    Modern math is more abstract. Old math, like the one from primary school, was more inspired on physical phenomena and interactions with previous things. We need more "clever guesses"(lets see what happens if A is B because C) and building up of theories in exercises. But that would not be rigourus...
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    > In math everything is purely theoretical conjecture. No hypothesizes, no testing, no observation, just derivations of theorems from axioms. Sorry, no. Your statement is quite ignorant of how mathematics works, and how mathematicians create new theorems and proofs - your description is actually backwards. Proofs often use axioms, but it's rare that somebody starts with a list of axioms and extends them to a higher-order theorem in a backwards fashion like some Prolog program. In advanced pure math (ie. analysis), we usually start with a novel conceptual diagram (hypothesis) and decide which fields and axioms apply, so it's very creative. The language of mathematics is used to express original ideas that usually spring from imagination. Some of the scenes in "Good Will Hunting" are pretty accurate, including the hallway blackboard, mirror and "flaming proof" scenes.
  - 5y ago

teleforce 5y ago

This reminds me of Holy Roman Empire, it's neither Holy nor Roman nor it's an Empire.

reifyx 5y ago
There's this old picture from a 1986 MIT lecture: https://miro.medium.com/max/4448/1*-yaqXNO1tUwVkUpyOqTT7Q@2x.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/4448/1*-yaqXNO1tUwVkUpyOqTT7Q@2x....
- db48x 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&t=15s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&t=15s
  - neonological 5y ago
    Good find. My post is voted down, but this authoritative source is literally saying the same exact thing.
scollet 5y ago
Defining a thing by what it's not. Now that is a science unto itself.

adrusi 5y ago

It's true that for some time now "science" has been used almost exclusively for disciplines that make use of experimental methodologies, but in earlier usage it just meant roughly "the process of creating knowledge." The German "Wissenschaft" (which is normally how "science" is translated) is closer to the older meaning (though I'm not fluent in German, so I'm just going off what I've been told).

neonological 5y ago
But the inconsistency still exists regardless of the historical etymology. Math is not a science. A mathematician is Not a scientist. Why is computing a science?
- User23 5y ago
  Logic, Ethics, and Aesthetics are the three normative sciences. Mathematics falls comfortably within the domain of logic, and thus mathematics is a scientific enterprise. Computing science is the subset of the subset that deals with getting actual computable results.
  - neonological 5y ago
    Did you just group Logic and aesthetics together into one thing? Beauty and ethics are subjective. Logic is not. Either way following this definition of "normative science" neither logic nor computer science nor math goes under it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_science The reason is because this definition mentions the notion of preferred outcome. Logic and Math and computer science do not deal with "preferred outcomes" these fields are all just axioms and the consequences resulting from said axioms preferred or not. Pedantry aside, nobody considers a "mathematician" to be a "scientist" when using the terms as they are commonly used in English. This is a total inconsistency.
    - User23 5y ago
      I’m using Peirce’s definition of the normative sciences[1]. As is not uncommon in English, the same words or phrases can denote different concepts and the wiki link you shared is a case in point. [1] https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce
      - neonological 5y ago
        Feels arbitrary. You don't group oil painting with mechanical engineering why group Math with Beauty? This isko organization... if they do indeed follow pierce is incredibly strange. Case in point: https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce1.jpg https://www.isko.org/cyclo/peirce1.jpg Philosophy is under mathematics which is not under logic? Philosophy is like literature it is entirely a separate category and logic isn't even mentioned in his arbitrary grouping.

userbinator 5y ago

I suppose if we call it computer science, then perhaps all the other forms of science should really be called "reverse engineering" (especially biology.)

neonological 5y ago
Biology is consistent with science in the sense that there exists people called scientists in biology that do experiments utilizing the scientific method. In math everything is purely theoretical conjecture. No hypothesizes, no testing, no observation, just derivations of theorems from axioms. Same with "Computer Science" it's all logic games. That's why mathematicians are not known as scientists. For computing, I believe the term "computer science" was likely mistakenly coined by someone who didn't know the full extent of the word "science."
- huachimingo 5y ago
  Modern math is more abstract. Old math, like the one from primary school, was more inspired on physical phenomena and interactions with previous things. We need more "clever guesses"(lets see what happens if A is B because C) and building up of theories in exercises. But that would not be rigourus...
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > In math everything is purely theoretical conjecture. No hypothesizes, no testing, no observation, just derivations of theorems from axioms. Sorry, no. Your statement is quite ignorant of how mathematics works, and how mathematicians create new theorems and proofs - your description is actually backwards. Proofs often use axioms, but it's rare that somebody starts with a list of axioms and extends them to a higher-order theorem in a backwards fashion like some Prolog program. In advanced pure math (ie. analysis), we usually start with a novel conceptual diagram (hypothesis) and decide which fields and axioms apply, so it's very creative. The language of mathematics is used to express original ideas that usually spring from imagination. Some of the scenes in "Good Will Hunting" are pretty accurate, including the hallway blackboard, mirror and "flaming proof" scenes.
- 5y ago