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Assuming this works, isn't this pretty much game over for dentists? I'm aware that dentists do more than fillings, but it seems like there would be a serious co

Assuming this works, isn't this pretty much game over for dentists? I'm aware that dentists do more than fillings, but it seems like there would be a serious contraction, even if this costed something like $1000 a tooth after insurance. That being said, even if this worked, it's not like it's instant, so you still have to be careful with your teeth. I wonder how this differs from novamin, which supposedly does the same thing and you can already purchase now.

johnkpaul 5y ago
Hah I felt this same way when I discovered you can change your diet to basically completely remove all dental problems. I doubt society can possible change quickly enough for us to see the downfall of the profession.
- killermouse0 5y ago
  Would you care to elaborate on those diet changes?
  - wyager 5y ago
    Eliminate things bacteria can efficiently metabolize, consume things that humans can efficiently metabolize. Namely, eliminate saccharides (sugar, plant starches, etc.) and get your calories from fat instead. Improved dentition is only one of many benefits.
  - tom_mellior 5y ago
    "Diet = dental health" is bullshit. My partner was raised sugar-free and has horrible teeth with many cavities. So does their entire family. I was raised on a diet which included many forms of sweets, and I have never had a cavity. Same for my entire family. Genetics or other biological predisposition seems to be a major factor. Diet might help a bit, but don't expect any magical effects.
- joshuahughes 5y ago
  Presumably no sugar being the primary factor. No carbs too?
  - sitzkrieg 5y ago
    sugar doesn't cause cavities, acids do. some bacteria which is not uniformly present in people eats carbs and deposits acids. this is covered in great detail ina good book, "kiss your dentist goodbye" that i just read. ive seen improvements in my awful teeth after giving the free regimen a try
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      Are there any Ph tablets that are effective at neutralizing the acid that isn’t toothpaste? I’ve only recently learned you aren’t supposed to rinse your mouth after brushing!
      - evan_ 5y ago
        You could just eat a spoonful of baking soda.
        jcrben 5y ago
        I put baking soda in my drinking water, as mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27329115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27329115 - typically 1 teaspoon per liter
        chihuahua 5y ago
        Doesn't the stomach acid instantly neutralize that?
        hackily 5y ago
        I sure hope your stomach acid isn't finding it's way into your mouth! The point is to raise the pH in the mouth so your teeth, since acidity causes calcium to leach out of your teeth
- Blammar 5y ago
  This is from memory, so could be wrong. The goal is to starve the streptococcus mutans bacteria in your mouth. Since that lives off sugar and starch, you both (a) rinse your mouth with a bactericidal (b) brush teeth, tongue, and gums after ingesting any sugar or starch. The downside is excessive bactericidal use or brushing can damage your mouth tissues and teeth. Another approach I had heard about but have no further info was to be vaccinated against S. mutans, so presumably your saliva would attack it somehow. I don't understand the mechanism here. In the meantime, I use a prescription dose of fluoride toothpaste daily to harden the hydroxyapatite in my mouth.
  - johnkpaul 5y ago
    :-) my approach is just to not eat any sugar or starch but definitely agree with mechanism.
  - wyager 5y ago
    You can also just quit eating saccharides. Incidentally (or perhaps not), this has a lot of positive effects besides improving dental health. It's a first line treatment for many metabolic disorders like diabetes and even many cases of epilepsy. It resolves many digestive issues, as it reduces or eliminates most things humans can't easily metabolize (plant fiber, large sugar molecules, etc.). It helps with weight management because most human groups have not yet evolved an appropriately tuned satiety response to saccharides.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Unfortunately, no. These only deposit a couple micrometers of enamel per day if used twice daily. They could potentially help as a form of preventative maintenance, but reversing significant dental cavities seems unlikely.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  That seems like a lot though. Let's say it's just 1 micrometer per day. A tooth is about 10mm (10,000 micrometers). So over a period of about 28 years all of your teeth's enamel can be completely restored? Given that most people don't lose all of the enamel of any of their teeth it seems like there wouldn't be any point of going to a dentist. By the time you're getting the age where you'd even think about dentures, this treatment would completely reverse all tooth decay no?
  - kaybe 5y ago
    I feel problems with gums and other areas don't get stressed enough in childhood. There are plenty of other problems that are not enamel-related, and I'd guess you can easily still have trouble with enamel even with this treatment.
  - saurik 5y ago
    Tooth decay isn't a generic slow wearing down of all of your enamel but instead a concentrated attack on a small location of enamel from food for example being consistently stuck in a small fissure. A big thing you use dentists for is managing plaque that makes these issues worse, and probably also will help block the effects of these lozenges. Polishing your teeth actually removes small quantities of enamel with the goal of making the teeth a bit smoother so there are less places for things to get stuck. Dentists also are dealing with issues where your teeth get cracked or otherwise damaged from grinding or hard foods. I can't imagine just indiscriminately throwing layers of enamel at the problem is going to leave you in a solve where "there wouldn't be any point of going to a dentist".
    - hanniabu 5y ago
windexh8er 5y ago
Mostly no. Keep in mind people are not born with perfect teeth by default. My SO is a DDS and has been practicing for about 15 years now. The bulk of her workday is definitely not fillings. Remember people break teeth, grind teeth, teeth die (trauma, health, etc), people want cosmetic work and the list goes on and on. She loves this type of thing to let people help themselves - but it often doesn't work. There's product on the market already that helps reverse caries before they need to be addressed - and people are lazy. They don't use it, don't follow through, and then come in to have the work done in the end. So while this will be a great thing for a lot of people it will likely be another tool in a dental professional's belt more than anything.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  What is this product you mentioned that reverses the start of cavities? Any google of it is filled with cheap SEO for me.
  - windexh8er 5y ago
    The one I remember is called MI Paste [0]. From what I understand it can help remineralize and strengthen teeth. Basically vitamins for your teeth. [0] http://www.mi-paste.com/about.php http://www.mi-paste.com/about.php
    - abecedarius 5y ago
      I know nothing about this product, but https://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dr-mellanbys-tooth-decay-reversal-diet.html https://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dr-mellanbys-... makes it plausible that something like it could work; though personally I'd prefer the diet from the referenced paper unless the product has a better paper behind it.
    - jcomis 5y ago
      "Prevident 5000 Plus" supposedly works better than MI Paste. I've used both and prefer it. Plus MI paste has dairy ingredients. I've been using generic prevident 1x per day and it's crazy how much it helps.
H1Supreme 5y ago
Not really. Plaque removal has to be the #1 thing done at a dentist's office. I've had one cavity filled in the last 15 years, and the rest of the visits have been cleanings (ie. plaque removal). Plus, it really doesn't matter how well you brush and floss. There's always something for the hygienist to remove. Which, I can only assume prevents this lozenge from actually doing anything.
- rocky1138 5y ago
  Perhaps in the future there will be a layer added to this pill that first dissolves the plaque.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    That itself could be a standalone product -- I'd expect lots of people would prefer sucking a lozenge over daily toothbrushing
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      It’s not a lozenge, but LivFresh dental gel (used like toothpaste) more or less dissolves plaque. It’s a bit pricey, but well worth it. Especially if you hate having the dentist lecture you every appointment.
      - hanniabu 5y ago
        Is it for maintenance or can it remove 6 months worth of plaque at once (like would be the case with the dentist)?
  - webmaven 5y ago
    > Perhaps in the future there will be a layer added to this pill that first dissolves the plaque. I suspect that without a plaque removal step, these lozenges could contribute to plaque mineralization into dental calculus.
complexworld 5y ago
This study of Novamin concludes: > Review shows that Novamin has significantly less clinical evidence to prove its effectiveness as a remineralization agent in treating both carious and non-carious lesion. Hence, better designed clinical trials should be carried out in the future before definitive recommendations can be made. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068624/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068624/
- abandonliberty 5y ago
  This is the unfortunate truth of dentistry: things that work in the clinic and lab don't translate well to everyday life. Water flossers are advertised as being as effective as floss. However, it turns out studies on floss haven't borne out either.

johnkpaul 5y ago

Hah I felt this same way when I discovered you can change your diet to basically completely remove all dental problems. I doubt society can possible change quickly enough for us to see the downfall of the profession.

killermouse0 5y ago
Would you care to elaborate on those diet changes?
- wyager 5y ago
  Eliminate things bacteria can efficiently metabolize, consume things that humans can efficiently metabolize. Namely, eliminate saccharides (sugar, plant starches, etc.) and get your calories from fat instead. Improved dentition is only one of many benefits.
- tom_mellior 5y ago
  "Diet = dental health" is bullshit. My partner was raised sugar-free and has horrible teeth with many cavities. So does their entire family. I was raised on a diet which included many forms of sweets, and I have never had a cavity. Same for my entire family. Genetics or other biological predisposition seems to be a major factor. Diet might help a bit, but don't expect any magical effects.
joshuahughes 5y ago
Presumably no sugar being the primary factor. No carbs too?
- sitzkrieg 5y ago
  sugar doesn't cause cavities, acids do. some bacteria which is not uniformly present in people eats carbs and deposits acids. this is covered in great detail ina good book, "kiss your dentist goodbye" that i just read. ive seen improvements in my awful teeth after giving the free regimen a try
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Are there any Ph tablets that are effective at neutralizing the acid that isn’t toothpaste? I’ve only recently learned you aren’t supposed to rinse your mouth after brushing!
    - evan_ 5y ago
      You could just eat a spoonful of baking soda.
      - jcrben 5y ago
        I put baking soda in my drinking water, as mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27329115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27329115 - typically 1 teaspoon per liter
        chihuahua 5y ago
        Doesn't the stomach acid instantly neutralize that?
        hackily 5y ago
        I sure hope your stomach acid isn't finding it's way into your mouth! The point is to raise the pH in the mouth so your teeth, since acidity causes calcium to leach out of your teeth
Blammar 5y ago
This is from memory, so could be wrong. The goal is to starve the streptococcus mutans bacteria in your mouth. Since that lives off sugar and starch, you both (a) rinse your mouth with a bactericidal (b) brush teeth, tongue, and gums after ingesting any sugar or starch. The downside is excessive bactericidal use or brushing can damage your mouth tissues and teeth. Another approach I had heard about but have no further info was to be vaccinated against S. mutans, so presumably your saliva would attack it somehow. I don't understand the mechanism here. In the meantime, I use a prescription dose of fluoride toothpaste daily to harden the hydroxyapatite in my mouth.
- johnkpaul 5y ago
  :-) my approach is just to not eat any sugar or starch but definitely agree with mechanism.
- wyager 5y ago
  You can also just quit eating saccharides. Incidentally (or perhaps not), this has a lot of positive effects besides improving dental health. It's a first line treatment for many metabolic disorders like diabetes and even many cases of epilepsy. It resolves many digestive issues, as it reduces or eliminates most things humans can't easily metabolize (plant fiber, large sugar molecules, etc.). It helps with weight management because most human groups have not yet evolved an appropriately tuned satiety response to saccharides.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Unfortunately, no. These only deposit a couple micrometers of enamel per day if used twice daily. They could potentially help as a form of preventative maintenance, but reversing significant dental cavities seems unlikely.

endisneigh 5y ago
That seems like a lot though. Let's say it's just 1 micrometer per day. A tooth is about 10mm (10,000 micrometers). So over a period of about 28 years all of your teeth's enamel can be completely restored? Given that most people don't lose all of the enamel of any of their teeth it seems like there wouldn't be any point of going to a dentist. By the time you're getting the age where you'd even think about dentures, this treatment would completely reverse all tooth decay no?
- kaybe 5y ago
  I feel problems with gums and other areas don't get stressed enough in childhood. There are plenty of other problems that are not enamel-related, and I'd guess you can easily still have trouble with enamel even with this treatment.
- saurik 5y ago
  Tooth decay isn't a generic slow wearing down of all of your enamel but instead a concentrated attack on a small location of enamel from food for example being consistently stuck in a small fissure. A big thing you use dentists for is managing plaque that makes these issues worse, and probably also will help block the effects of these lozenges. Polishing your teeth actually removes small quantities of enamel with the goal of making the teeth a bit smoother so there are less places for things to get stuck. Dentists also are dealing with issues where your teeth get cracked or otherwise damaged from grinding or hard foods. I can't imagine just indiscriminately throwing layers of enamel at the problem is going to leave you in a solve where "there wouldn't be any point of going to a dentist".
  - hanniabu 5y ago

windexh8er 5y ago

Mostly no. Keep in mind people are not born with perfect teeth by default. My SO is a DDS and has been practicing for about 15 years now. The bulk of her workday is definitely not fillings. Remember people break teeth, grind teeth, teeth die (trauma, health, etc), people want cosmetic work and the list goes on and on. She loves this type of thing to let people help themselves - but it often doesn't work. There's product on the market already that helps reverse caries before they need to be addressed - and people are lazy. They don't use it, don't follow through, and then come in to have the work done in the end. So while this will be a great thing for a lot of people it will likely be another tool in a dental professional's belt more than anything.

vineyardmike 5y ago
What is this product you mentioned that reverses the start of cavities? Any google of it is filled with cheap SEO for me.
- windexh8er 5y ago
  The one I remember is called MI Paste [0]. From what I understand it can help remineralize and strengthen teeth. Basically vitamins for your teeth. [0] http://www.mi-paste.com/about.php http://www.mi-paste.com/about.php
  - abecedarius 5y ago
    I know nothing about this product, but https://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dr-mellanbys-tooth-decay-reversal-diet.html https://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dr-mellanbys-... makes it plausible that something like it could work; though personally I'd prefer the diet from the referenced paper unless the product has a better paper behind it.
  - jcomis 5y ago
    "Prevident 5000 Plus" supposedly works better than MI Paste. I've used both and prefer it. Plus MI paste has dairy ingredients. I've been using generic prevident 1x per day and it's crazy how much it helps.

H1Supreme 5y ago

Not really. Plaque removal has to be the #1 thing done at a dentist's office. I've had one cavity filled in the last 15 years, and the rest of the visits have been cleanings (ie. plaque removal). Plus, it really doesn't matter how well you brush and floss. There's always something for the hygienist to remove. Which, I can only assume prevents this lozenge from actually doing anything.

rocky1138 5y ago
Perhaps in the future there will be a layer added to this pill that first dissolves the plaque.
- klyrs 5y ago
  That itself could be a standalone product -- I'd expect lots of people would prefer sucking a lozenge over daily toothbrushing
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    It’s not a lozenge, but LivFresh dental gel (used like toothpaste) more or less dissolves plaque. It’s a bit pricey, but well worth it. Especially if you hate having the dentist lecture you every appointment.
    - hanniabu 5y ago
      Is it for maintenance or can it remove 6 months worth of plaque at once (like would be the case with the dentist)?
- webmaven 5y ago
  > Perhaps in the future there will be a layer added to this pill that first dissolves the plaque. I suspect that without a plaque removal step, these lozenges could contribute to plaque mineralization into dental calculus.

complexworld 5y ago

This study of Novamin concludes: > Review shows that Novamin has significantly less clinical evidence to prove its effectiveness as a remineralization agent in treating both carious and non-carious lesion. Hence, better designed clinical trials should be carried out in the future before definitive recommendations can be made. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068624/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068624/

abandonliberty 5y ago
This is the unfortunate truth of dentistry: things that work in the clinic and lab don't translate well to everyday life. Water flossers are advertised as being as effective as floss. However, it turns out studies on floss haven't borne out either.