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I have an argument that I want to see what other people think of. Why is cheating bad? You say that they "claim more than they actually know" but that just doe

I have an argument that I want to see what other people think of. Why is cheating bad? You say that they "claim more than they actually know" but that just doesn't hold up. If you try and get a job then you'll get fired, if you try and get into any sort of complex class without knowing anything you'll fail eventually. Cheating won't hold up in the long term. If it does then why does it matter? If you manage to score a CSC job (and hold it) without knowing a thing about it then you are qualified. I'm sure someone can tell me why I'm wrong but I can't think of it myself

MattGaiser 5y ago
> fail eventually. The problem with a trustless society is the high cost of it. Sure, people will fail, but far later in the process. So the doctor will fail, but instead of failing at the selection for medical school will fail when he actually must do procedures. So a lot of money was spent to train a useless doctor. Sure the employee will fail, but after you have paid then 10,000 and they have screwed up a lot of work.
- ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
  I personally don't think the monetary consequences would be very large. We have absolutely no idea how it would go but for me personally I'd probably just continue to learn normally and I bet a lot of other people would as well! However, having doctors working at 80% efficiency (Enough not to be fired but bad enough to kill some people) wouldn't be the best at all...
Jiro 5y ago
Skill isn't an all or nothing thing. People can pretend to have higher skill than they really do without being so unskilled that they'll immediately be discovered. All you know is that some person had a higher error rate than the person who didn't get the job, except that since he didn't get the job there's no way to know for sure.
- ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
  I think this combined with the other guys response is the best. I don't think its possible for a totally awful doctor to actually be employed but one with 60% of the skills could be. Thanks for your answer!
hdctambien 5y ago
From a teachers perspective, the problem with cheating is that it doesn't help me help you. Especially if you are cheating from the get-go, it can take a while before I notice it and by then it might be too late. Tests are supposed to be assessments, not some sort of trial-by-question or student ranking system. (Whether a particular teacher/school treats them that way is another discussion). If your assessment shows that you know 20% of the material, then I can help you learn (at least some of) the other 80%. However, if you know 20% of the material but cheat your way to an 80% on the assessment, then I will try to help you with the last 20% assuming you know the 60% of the content that you cheated on. At best that will end up with you knowing 40% of the material, but more likely you won't be able to learn much more than the 20% you already knew because I won't have the information to approach the content correctly for you. And in the next unit, that missing 80% will compound and you'll learn even less. (I teach Computer Science... so imagine trying to learn for-loops if you don't really know how to declare/initialize variables) So, cheating really only hurts yourself. You will be one of those people that doesn't get the job, or gets fired. But you could have been someone that was successful at the job if you had been honest on the assessments and got the help you needed when you needed it. (Similarly, I think guessing on assessments is a bad idea, because it can hide misunderstandings from the teacher and the student)
- ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful answer! First off I really think CSC is the worst when talking about cheating. For some reason my school thinks looking at stackoverflow or talking to other students about the assignment while either of you have your project open is cheating. I love CSC so all the classes I've taken have mostly been below me or about my level. These rules really annoyed me because because watching videos (Cheating according to my school) or looking at stack overflow is one of the best ways to learn. I'm now in the CSC club and I constantly see people asking the dumbest questions (Even just syntax confusion!) because they don't understand how helpful the internet is for learning! They have been told that stackoverflow is unreliable and should never be used. I feel like this really hampers their ability to learn... > Similarly, I think guessing on assessments is a bad idea, because it can hide misunderstandings from the teacher and the student) I think your missing something here. Your a CSC teacher so you know that grades are so so important for CSC students. For example, I have to maintain a 3.93 GPA if I want to even be considered to go to my school of choice. This means guessing on assignments is 100% necessary if I don't know the answer. There have been many times on assignments that I have thought of a cool or different way of doing something but have immediately stopped because I don't get more points for doing something slightly more efficiently but get massive points off for getting it less efficient. Not worth the risk! If I don't fight for every single point I am digging my own grave towards a 3.9. I obviously have no idea what kind of teacher you are but my current ones don't seem to understand the gravity of their grades. They throw stuff on tests that isn't relevant or just miss grade assignments (And forget to give me points back after I pointed it out) like it isn't a big deal. These small mistakes are the difference between getting into the collage I want or not! The completely control a big part of my life but don't seem to know! I duno. I feel like my teachers mostly don't really care about education and mostly about making the test as difficult as they can get away with. Getting a 4.0 is so mentally taxing I feel utterly defeated with the entire system. Sorry for the long rant!

MattGaiser 5y ago

> fail eventually. The problem with a trustless society is the high cost of it. Sure, people will fail, but far later in the process. So the doctor will fail, but instead of failing at the selection for medical school will fail when he actually must do procedures. So a lot of money was spent to train a useless doctor. Sure the employee will fail, but after you have paid then 10,000 and they have screwed up a lot of work.

ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
I personally don't think the monetary consequences would be very large. We have absolutely no idea how it would go but for me personally I'd probably just continue to learn normally and I bet a lot of other people would as well! However, having doctors working at 80% efficiency (Enough not to be fired but bad enough to kill some people) wouldn't be the best at all...

Jiro 5y ago

Skill isn't an all or nothing thing. People can pretend to have higher skill than they really do without being so unskilled that they'll immediately be discovered. All you know is that some person had a higher error rate than the person who didn't get the job, except that since he didn't get the job there's no way to know for sure.

ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
I think this combined with the other guys response is the best. I don't think its possible for a totally awful doctor to actually be employed but one with 60% of the skills could be. Thanks for your answer!

hdctambien 5y ago

From a teachers perspective, the problem with cheating is that it doesn't help me help you. Especially if you are cheating from the get-go, it can take a while before I notice it and by then it might be too late. Tests are supposed to be assessments, not some sort of trial-by-question or student ranking system. (Whether a particular teacher/school treats them that way is another discussion). If your assessment shows that you know 20% of the material, then I can help you learn (at least some of) the other 80%. However, if you know 20% of the material but cheat your way to an 80% on the assessment, then I will try to help you with the last 20% assuming you know the 60% of the content that you cheated on. At best that will end up with you knowing 40% of the material, but more likely you won't be able to learn much more than the 20% you already knew because I won't have the information to approach the content correctly for you. And in the next unit, that missing 80% will compound and you'll learn even less. (I teach Computer Science... so imagine trying to learn for-loops if you don't really know how to declare/initialize variables) So, cheating really only hurts yourself. You will be one of those people that doesn't get the job, or gets fired. But you could have been someone that was successful at the job if you had been honest on the assessments and got the help you needed when you needed it. (Similarly, I think guessing on assessments is a bad idea, because it can hide misunderstandings from the teacher and the student)

ffffwe3rq352y3 5y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful answer! First off I really think CSC is the worst when talking about cheating. For some reason my school thinks looking at stackoverflow or talking to other students about the assignment while either of you have your project open is cheating. I love CSC so all the classes I've taken have mostly been below me or about my level. These rules really annoyed me because because watching videos (Cheating according to my school) or looking at stack overflow is one of the best ways to learn. I'm now in the CSC club and I constantly see people asking the dumbest questions (Even just syntax confusion!) because they don't understand how helpful the internet is for learning! They have been told that stackoverflow is unreliable and should never be used. I feel like this really hampers their ability to learn... > Similarly, I think guessing on assessments is a bad idea, because it can hide misunderstandings from the teacher and the student) I think your missing something here. Your a CSC teacher so you know that grades are so so important for CSC students. For example, I have to maintain a 3.93 GPA if I want to even be considered to go to my school of choice. This means guessing on assignments is 100% necessary if I don't know the answer. There have been many times on assignments that I have thought of a cool or different way of doing something but have immediately stopped because I don't get more points for doing something slightly more efficiently but get massive points off for getting it less efficient. Not worth the risk! If I don't fight for every single point I am digging my own grave towards a 3.9. I obviously have no idea what kind of teacher you are but my current ones don't seem to understand the gravity of their grades. They throw stuff on tests that isn't relevant or just miss grade assignments (And forget to give me points back after I pointed it out) like it isn't a big deal. These small mistakes are the difference between getting into the collage I want or not! The completely control a big part of my life but don't seem to know! I duno. I feel like my teachers mostly don't really care about education and mostly about making the test as difficult as they can get away with. Getting a 4.0 is so mentally taxing I feel utterly defeated with the entire system. Sorry for the long rant!